They train with AKs but will use G36 in Afghanistan...
I`m hoping to visit HS Produkt soon
We are in DIRE NEEDS of information about current state of VHS program, so please, please, ask the more you can.
Originally Posted by zg18
MiG-21s will stay
It seems that due to a general lack of funds, our MiG-21s will be modernized again in order to fly for another 5-7 years.
RSK MiG, Elbit, HAL and Aerostar are being considered for the overhaul. Elbit is offering a $2,5 million modernization program per plane, presumably to 21-2000 standard, while RSK is asking for $1,5 million per plane. It is unkown if the upgrade offered is 21-93 or 21-97.
Personally, I would love to see our MiGs upgraded to 21-97, or Israeli 21-2000 as second best. There is also talk that additional 8-10 MiGs may be bought to give us a total of 16-18 operational fighters, a number the Air Force has stated is the bare minimum for operational effectivness.
If done corretly, this upgrade may be a huge boost to our Air Force's combat capability, and more importantly, we won't lose our combat air force.
Those 8-10 MiGs are to be bought from Odessa in Ukraine. They are former Algerian AF fighters, which Ukraine took in exchange for MiG-29s and intended to sell them to Yemen, but Yemen backed out and the MiGs stayed in Ukraine. They were allegedly already inspected and could be delivered in very short time.
Here's a photo of one of them:
Last edited by Hoverhind; 12-21-2011 at 04:38 PM.
It's really a shame when you consider with which quasi-solutions we agree now. From a country willing to buy new Gripens we soon got satisfied with second-hand F-16s than with uber old F-4Fs and now we are looking forward to another 5-7 years with venerable but deeply obsolete MiG-21s.
A fleet of 16-18 fully modernized MiG-21s is not something to be joked with but considering what sums are being mentioned here (1,5 - 2,5 million USD) we will not get nor MiG-21-93, nor MiG-21-97 nor MiG-21-2000 variants because back in 1999/2000 Elbit requested 4-5 million dollars per aircraft (not to mention what inflation has done to this sum). If we decide to prolong the lives of our MiG-21s we will have to make do with old radars, old armament but new paint jobs because spending more money than mentioned here would be a complete waste of funds considering we will buy merely 5-7 years.
I disagree. As I wrote in my previous post, those sums are what the companies themselves are asking for. Keep in mind that a MiG-21 Bison was $3 million in 2000, today it is priced at 1.5 million. Prices have fallen dramatically.
However, due to the nature of our political system and the fact that half of those running it can't stand Croatia being independent, I have to agree that some excuse will be found to only conduct the barest minimum of upgrades to comply with NATO standards.
In best case scenario, we'll have 18 MiG-21-2000 in about a year, which will greatly outgun any potentially threat country in the region and give us air supremacy among ex-yu countries.
Air supremacy against nothing is quite simply to achieve. Also because more than half of the others countrie are in same alliance and the rest will follow shortly.
Real question is: what other things would be acquired in the meantime?
I mean: shall Croatia comply with the others part of its pre-crisis acquisition programs? VHS? M-84D? PATROL BOAT?????
In case most part of these thing would be neverteless acquired, these MiG-21 are a great deal, if not, also getting 24 Typooon would be not enought.
Why do gloomy dude? At least you don't have three packs of hyenas ripping, trying to tear the country appart.
Originally Posted by Hoverhind
I think those will be jumpstarted when the new minister takes the office. As we already discussed, his background means he'll fight for the military, and tanks and VHS programs will certainly be started up.
No, we have one pack of hyenas disguised as various parties. The problem with that is that they don't waste time fighting amongst themselves and just go straight for ruining the country.
Hope so, in every case now the change is done and Croatia has a new MoD
and a new Defendant's one:
Both of them with an outstanding military career.
Originally Posted by fiorellabel
But also, comparing oneself with ex-yu doesn't make sense, because Macedonia, Montenegro or Slovenia really are no benchmark air force wise.
It makes more sense to compare yourself with your neighbours. Croatia shares most of its border with Bosnia & Herzegovina, Slovenia, Hungary, and (over the sea) Italy. Bosnia nor Slovenia don't have nor will have fighter aircraft in the next 10+ years. So they have air supremacy over Bosnia & Slovenia.
Hungary and Italy are in the same military alliance with Croatia, the countries don't have disputes (afaik).
Italy is over the sea and flies Eurofighters, so they are no imminent threat but also would be too strong anyway so even something better would be a waste of money.
Hungary is right next door and already flies Gripens, so refurbished or upgraded Mig-21s won't be a match for them, but at the same time they don't have to, as they (Croatian MoD) seem pretty confident that nothing will happen until the resources of the "new" Migs run out and they buy something new, so it could turn out to be a smart choice. Especially if they use the free time and freed up resources to upgrade their ground forces and navy, buy new ships (maybe a corvette if they are lucky, that would also improve their sea rescue capabilities, which is important for a nation with such a large coastline), overhaul and upgrade tanks, buy IFVs etc.. so objectively, this could be a good move for the overall good of the Croatian military.
I would've liked the Croatian Air Force to get new jets, that would also boost their Anti Ship capabilities and thus be a good substitute for the lack of larger and more powerful vessels.
At the same time, it looks like at least two other countries in the region are getting new fighter jets instead of upgrading old ones. (But that doesn't have anything to do with Croatia, since they don't really seem to need them for now)
Last edited by Hyde; 12-23-2011 at 02:40 PM.
No, old camo, before 2003 upgrade.
Originally Posted by tadeus
I can't give you reliable sources, no official requests or offers are available to public. I can only tell you what I learned on Croatian aviation forums and from a few pilots. Those prices are also quoted in Slobodna Dalmacija article I linked a few posts back.
I agree that Croatian Armed Forces as a whole will be better off with this decision, especially with our new Minister of Defense, who is a special forces veteran and will push hard for the military. Hopefully, we'll se M-84D upgrade put into production soon, and I hope for an order of 30-40 new M-95s in a year or two. That could finally lead to a few orders from abroad.
AShM capabilites will be a good addon once new jets are acquired in 7-10 years, but I'd rather see our RBS-15s upgraded to MkIII or even IV. That would give us a deep strike weapon and allow our missile boats and MOL launchers to sink anything up to a destroyer task force that sails into our territorial waters, and especially among our islands. I would also love to see another 5-9 MOL launchers built, 3 launchers for Croatia's coast is just embarrasing.
We won't be buying Russian ships, but Gowind 200 corvettes have been talked about a while back, although it seems that MEKO design is more likely to be chosen when new ships are given a green light in a few years. I'd prefer a pair modified MEKO A-200SAN class.
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