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Thread: Croatian Military Pictures! - Read the first post carefully!

  1. #4156
    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadeus View Post
    Name a reliable source, stop the assumptions. And try some pics please.
    Attachment 168820
    maintenance on 105 , in A.D.2006.?
    No, old camo, before 2003 upgrade.

    I can't give you reliable sources, no official requests or offers are available to public. I can only tell you what I learned on Croatian aviation forums and from a few pilots. Those prices are also quoted in Slobodna Dalmacija article I linked a few posts back.


    @Hyde
    I agree that Croatian Armed Forces as a whole will be better off with this decision, especially with our new Minister of Defense, who is a special forces veteran and will push hard for the military. Hopefully, we'll se M-84D upgrade put into production soon, and I hope for an order of 30-40 new M-95s in a year or two. That could finally lead to a few orders from abroad.

    AShM capabilites will be a good addon once new jets are acquired in 7-10 years, but I'd rather see our RBS-15s upgraded to MkIII or even IV. That would give us a deep strike weapon and allow our missile boats and MOL launchers to sink anything up to a destroyer task force that sails into our territorial waters, and especially among our islands. I would also love to see another 5-9 MOL launchers built, 3 launchers for Croatia's coast is just embarrasing.

    We won't be buying Russian ships, but Gowind 200 corvettes have been talked about a while back, although it seems that MEKO design is more likely to be chosen when new ships are given a green light in a few years. I'd prefer a pair modified MEKO A-200SAN class.

  2. #4157
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    If you have the money for German ships, go for it. I just used the Soobrazitelny as an example picture because it looks good and is what I think a corvette should be like (and figured it could be a good fit for your navy).

    It's modern, it's light, it's relatively well armed for its size (which will even improve further after the next few hulls) and probably more affordable than Western made ships of the same displacement and/or armament. If you can have two/four for one/two, the "Place of Origin: Germany" in the documentation papers is no reason to buy just one ship, imho. Just because something is "Russian" is no reason to dismiss it, if it is technologically equal. But that's just my impartial opinion, I'm well aware that for a lot of people "Western" bears much more prestige and an image of quality and capability while at the same time "Russian" is synonymous to obsolete and cheap (in the bad way) even if it's not really the case.

  3. #4158
    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    You misunderstood me, Stereguschy is an excellent warship design and capabilities wise I'd sooner call it a destroyer than a corvette. I would love to see our flag flying from a couple of those, which would give us an extremely potent warship, and not upgunned OPVs designed for PSO missions and capable of little else like much of western designs are.

    However, our lot has been thrown in with NATO and thus there's no chance of our government ordering Russian equipment of this size and complexity, even if you can get three of these for one western design with far less capable weapons systems. Our politicans lack the backbone to go for the best no matter what it is, and they are especially reluctant to equip our Armed Forces to the level they should be equipped.

    As I said before, I hope this'll change with the new Minister.

  4. #4159
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    On this almost I think everione here agree, MiG-21 albeit obsolete still avoid the loss of CroAf supersonic capabilities and keep on in line with minimum Nato requirements.
    In meantime they would allow to keep on, if there will be the political will to do so, with the rest of the most necessary acquisition programmes of both army and Navy also in those times of economical turmoil.

  5. #4160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoverhind View Post
    @Hyde
    I agree that Croatian Armed Forces as a whole will be better off with this decision, especially with our new Minister of Defense, who is a special forces veteran and will push hard for the military. Hopefully, we'll se M-84D upgrade put into production soon, and I hope for an order of 30-40 new M-95s in a year or two. That could finally lead to a few orders from abroad.

    AShM capabilites will be a good addon once new jets are acquired in 7-10 years, but I'd rather see our RBS-15s upgraded to MkIII or even IV.
    I'm sorry to say this but what the hell are you talking about?!?!

    Croatia cannot nor will it ever produce new tanks from scratch. The 2 Degmans we have are the 2 prototypes of the Vihor tank project that were left behind in 1991 and were modernized with the help of Israeli companies to the M-95 level as we know it today. After we figured out that producing a new tank type independently is impossible for us we concentrated on the modernization of the M-84 tanks to the M-84D standard. Why else do you think the whole M-95 Degman idea was cancelled in the first place? All the M-84s we produced up until 2003 (when last 5 were handed over to the army) were completed from the parts that were left behind at the Đuro Đaković factory in 1991, and some components that were missing were imported either from Slovenia, Poland or Russia. However, some sources say that after 2003 (when the production ended) there were still sufficient quantities of parts/components to produce further 10-14 M-84As but these were later used to maintain and overhaul older M-84s to the M-84A4 standard. What I'm trying to say is: You can forget the idea of 20-30-40 new M-95s, this was stated on numerous occasions by our politicians, military experts, ĐĐ officials etc. because we do not have the capabilities to produce completely new tanks on our own. The only thing we can do (and probably will soon enough) is to modernize existing 2 battalions to M-84D level... and even this requires Israeli (ERA armour, RCWS gun), French (communication equipment) and German (new tracks and possibly engine) help.

    As far as RBS-15s are concerned... The possibility of modernizing our current RBS-15 Mk.1 missiles to the Mk.4 level is impossible. Why? Beacuse the Mk.4 variant is still in development and will not be finished by 2014/2015 at best and because it will be such a radical redesign that it will be a completely new missile. Further on, the option of upgrading our missiles to the Mk.3 standard is also questionable because no such work was done so far and Mk.1s were only raised to the Mk.2 variant a decade ago (Finnish and Swedish missiles underwent this upgrade). The reason might be the same as in the case of the Mk.4, it is simply a much revised design and even the body of the rocket itself is much different, let alone the software.

    I'm not trying to lecture you here but be careful what you write and do your research before you post such information here.

  6. #4161
    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    Make sure you understand what was posted before going around correcting people.

    I never said we could or would produce M-95s all on our own. If partners are found, the tanks could be assembled in Croatia as has been done in Yugoslavia. The partners will be found if the project is financially viable. It can only be viable if there are foreign orders, and those won't come if even our Army hasn't ordered the tanks and/or upgrade kits. Not to mention the commonality between M-84D and M-95. Logistically far sounder than ordering 30-40 Leo 2s, and financially doable unlike replacing entire fleet with 100 Leo 2s.
    I'll remind you that 104 MBTs are required to be operational by 2015 by the current long-term development plan, and a new one is yet to be drawn up. We're still around 30 MBTs short fo that.

    RBS-15 can be upgraded to Mk.IIIs, and you might know that a few dozen of our missiles were almost sent for the upgrade a few years back, but the idea was scrapped because of funds. By the time we would gather enough resources to finance a Mk.IV upgrade, in 4-5 years, it will be well out of development. In that time I'm sure SAAB will figure out a way how to upgrade older variants and not force all its customers to buy completely new missiles in case they desire the new standard.

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    Excuse me, but some country involved in M-84 development have ever said it wouldn't give Croatia any parts? and for what reason?
    Also tank for greater nation than Croatia itself use imported or licence-produced components, expecially guns, engines, termal visors and tracks, so why Croatia wouldn't?
    In every case, important things is to keep up with acquisitions, if instead of M-95 there will be second hand LEO2, where the problem lie?

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    As us Croatians would say: stop living in the clouds!

    If anyone wants our armed forces to develop and become more modern and powerful, it's me! But you're not being realistic. Most of the factories through-out ex Yugoslavia that were involved in the M-84 production ceased to exist - why? Because they had no one to produce components for, the M-84 production ended in 1991 and those firms lost the reason to exist. As I said, ĐĐ managed to assemble 30 or so tanks after 1991 but was forced to import parts from other non-Yu countries that were missing. Manufacturing a new tank like M-95 will never happen - there is less than 30% of its elements that are produced in Croatia, everything else was imported, nothing from the countries that were originally involved in the production. What makes you think anyone would want to be involved in the production of new M-95 tanks... producing a tank whose parts come from more than 10 different countries (Croatia, Israel, France, Germany, Poland, Slovenia, Russia...) makes it too expensive. Yeah, you are right when you say that most contires today have to import parts from other countries to complete their own tanks but at least they produce a minimum of 60-80% of the components, a percentage which is impossible for Croatia. And you mentioned foreign orders.... FROM WHOM!?!?! We didn't even manage to sell our M-84D tanks to Kuwait! This modernization was rejected by Kuwait because of American interests and Turkey (yes, Turkey, which doesn't even possess T-72/M-84s nor was ever involved in their production) won the contract. This would most certainly occur even if M-95s went into production - we are simply to small and only big powerful countires produce and sell tanks today. We don't stand a chance.

    RBS -15 Mk.1 to Mk.4 > now explain this to me: how do you think a missile with a range of 80km could possibly get a range of 400km (that's the range of new Mk.4s)? Well, by adding more rocket fuel.... and pushing it into existing Mk.1 missiles is simply phisically impossible. So, lets negelect all other aspects but this modernization Mk.1 to Mk.4 is impossible just because of the fuel.

    And a propis of the modernization that was stopped in 2009... There was no modernization included in the contract, just a general overhaul and few software upgrades, nothing else. As I said, not even Mk.1 to Mk.3 upgrade is possible, just to Mk.2! The reasons are similar to the ones I wrote before... Mk.2s are almost the same as the Mk.1s except for better electronic countermeasures and slightly improved range (around 20km). Mk.3 have a range of 200km and ground attack capabilities - and these improvements cannot be fitted to Mk.1s or Mk.2s if not because for anything than because for much higher rocket fuel volume which cannot be pusshed into older rockets.

    Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. And if you don't believe me, thank ask yourself this - If your theory of bringing Mk.1s to Mk.4 was viable than why are new missiles/rockets even produced??? Why not bring, for example, all old Sidewinders AIM-9B to 9X, why even produce new ones if it is possible to modernize old ones indefinitely. Or better yet, lets wait for RBS-15 Mk.5s and bring our Mk.1s to that level. Come on, missiles/rockets/tanks/APCs/SAMs... can be upgraded up to a certain level but after that their original design becomes unsuitable and has to be changed! So to conclude.... our Mk.1 can be brought to Mk.2 level plus some software upgrades (these upgrades are performed almost annually in our rocket base in Žrnovnice) and nothing else!!!

  9. #4164
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    And what makes you think lengthening the missile to make room for more fuel isn't doable? Nobody will develope an upgrade for the product that is incompatibile with all earlier versions. When they do, it ceases to be an upgrade and becomes a new product with a new name.

    Regarding the tanks and the rest of your post, you just made obvious what is worst about Croatia and Croats. We want everything, but with zero effort. We want fighters, but don't want to pay for the operating costs, weapons, pilots and the aircraft themselves for that matter. We want an economy, but with no industry or production where everyone would be managers and directors. We want a military, but we don't want to pay for it. We want money, but we don't want to work for it. We want to win, but we don't want to take chances.
    And whenever someone comes up with anything remotely workable, everyone else says "naw, we're too small and we'd have to put in to much effort".

    This happened with M-95, it happened with domestic corvettes program, it happened with 3rd Kralj class missile boat, it's apparently happening with VHS rifles. It happened with our Mi-24s, a dozen MiGs that should have been flying but were thrown to rot our under the elements, it happened with new fighter plans, and to hundreds of other projetcs and assets from both military and civilian sectors.

    I have no intention to argue on Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas guys!

  10. #4165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoverhind View Post
    And what makes you think lengthening the missile to make room for more fuel isn't doable? Nobody will develope an upgrade for the product that is incompatibile with all earlier versions. When they do, it ceases to be an upgrade and becomes a new product with a new name.

    I have no intention to argue on Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas guys!

    I repeat... AIM-9B and AIM-9X bare the same name but are completely different air-to-air missiles. Just the suffix changes and the original name stays the same but they are in no way comparable. The same works for RBS-15 missiles. And if it is so easy to lengthen the missile, then why does Sweden produce new units and doesn't just upgrade the old ones?! Another example... our air force operates MiG-21bisD... the latest model of the MiG-21 series, first one being the MiG-21F variant. It is possible to modernize both of them to, lets say Lancer standard, but MiG-21bis will nontheless have greater range, it will be heavier, take more payload etc. because its design/physichs is different and will thus remain always more capable. Same can be said for F-18C and F-18E.... they bare the same name, can have same armamament and sensors, but F-18E has longer and more powerful engines, completely different intakes, stronger landing gear, longer nose cone etc. and will always be more capable. In other words, upgrades to a certain extent are possible but not indefinitely.

    As for the corvettes... producing a Gowind or Meko design look-a-likes was always the only option for us and not building a completely own design (our own hull is an option but everything else will be different aka imported), so this is not comparable with the M-95 tanks which we want to sell as our own but are >70% foreign. Also.... all the senors and weapons will be imported, only the hull and possibly the engines will be home-made (engines being license-built). Other options are simply not viable! In other words... it is true, we are too small to produce high-tech complex systems on our own and will be forced to import most of the systems which then means that the system will not be our own product and would be more expensive than similar systems produced in large quantities by countries who are bigger and can produce more than 80-90% of the components on their own. We have to concetrate on smaller arms (guns/rifles (VHS), SLRS (RAK-12), light armoured vehicles (LOV) etc.), patrol boats and licensed production (Patria and Strela 10CRO). That's were we can be competitive and offer high quality products.

    Merry Christmas to all of you as well! I don not want to fight either but one has to be realistic.

  11. #4166
    Senior Member zg18's Avatar
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    Merry Christmas people!!!

  12. #4167
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    To you also.

  13. #4168
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    Question Question

    Quote Originally Posted by SATNIK View Post
    What is Patria's model?

  14. #4169
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Not Patria. It's a Strela-10 launcher on a domestic vehicle, called "S-10 CRO".

    Last edited by Hyde; 12-29-2011 at 12:15 PM.

  15. #4170
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    Unhappy

    sorry.I mean what is chassis but not SAM system.

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