Thread: Croatian Military Pictures! - Read the first post carefully!

  1. #4111
    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zg18 View Post
    ^^^^

    I`m hoping to visit HS Produkt soon
    We are in DIRE NEEDS of information about current state of VHS program, so please, please, ask the more you can.

  2. #4112
    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    Default MiG-21s will stay

    It seems that due to a general lack of funds, our MiG-21s will be modernized again in order to fly for another 5-7 years.

    RSK MiG, Elbit, HAL and Aerostar are being considered for the overhaul. Elbit is offering a $2,5 million modernization program per plane, presumably to 21-2000 standard, while RSK is asking for $1,5 million per plane. It is unkown if the upgrade offered is 21-93 or 21-97.

    http://slobodnadalmacija.hr/Hrvatska...8/Default.aspx

    Personally, I would love to see our MiGs upgraded to 21-97, or Israeli 21-2000 as second best. There is also talk that additional 8-10 MiGs may be bought to give us a total of 16-18 operational fighters, a number the Air Force has stated is the bare minimum for operational effectivness.

    If done corretly, this upgrade may be a huge boost to our Air Force's combat capability, and more importantly, we won't lose our combat air force.

    EDIT:

    Those 8-10 MiGs are to be bought from Odessa in Ukraine. They are former Algerian AF fighters, which Ukraine took in exchange for MiG-29s and intended to sell them to Yemen, but Yemen backed out and the MiGs stayed in Ukraine. They were allegedly already inspected and could be delivered in very short time.

    Here's a photo of one of them:

    http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6142/5...1029b017_o.jpg
    Last edited by Hoverhind; 12-21-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    It's really a shame when you consider with which quasi-solutions we agree now. From a country willing to buy new Gripens we soon got satisfied with second-hand F-16s than with uber old F-4Fs and now we are looking forward to another 5-7 years with venerable but deeply obsolete MiG-21s.

    A fleet of 16-18 fully modernized MiG-21s is not something to be joked with but considering what sums are being mentioned here (1,5 - 2,5 million USD) we will not get nor MiG-21-93, nor MiG-21-97 nor MiG-21-2000 variants because back in 1999/2000 Elbit requested 4-5 million dollars per aircraft (not to mention what inflation has done to this sum). If we decide to prolong the lives of our MiG-21s we will have to make do with old radars, old armament but new paint jobs because spending more money than mentioned here would be a complete waste of funds considering we will buy merely 5-7 years.

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    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    I disagree. As I wrote in my previous post, those sums are what the companies themselves are asking for. Keep in mind that a MiG-21 Bison was $3 million in 2000, today it is priced at 1.5 million. Prices have fallen dramatically.

    However, due to the nature of our political system and the fact that half of those running it can't stand Croatia being independent, I have to agree that some excuse will be found to only conduct the barest minimum of upgrades to comply with NATO standards.

    In best case scenario, we'll have 18 MiG-21-2000 in about a year, which will greatly outgun any potentially threat country in the region and give us air supremacy among ex-yu countries.

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    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    Air supremacy against nothing is quite simply to achieve. Also because more than half of the others countrie are in same alliance and the rest will follow shortly.
    Real question is: what other things would be acquired in the meantime?
    I mean: shall Croatia comply with the others part of its pre-crisis acquisition programs? VHS? M-84D? PATROL BOAT?????
    In case most part of these thing would be neverteless acquired, these MiG-21 are a great deal, if not, also getting 24 Typooon would be not enought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoverhind View Post
    I disagree. As I wrote in my previous post, those sums are what the companies themselves are asking for. Keep in mind that a MiG-21 Bison was $3 million in 2000, today it is priced at 1.5 million. Prices have fallen dramatically.

    However, due to the nature of our political system and the fact that half of those running it can't stand Croatia being independent, I have to agree that some excuse will be found to only conduct the barest minimum of upgrades to comply with NATO standards.

    In best case scenario, we'll have 18 MiG-21-2000 in about a year, which will greatly outgun any potentially threat country in the region and give us air supremacy among ex-yu countries.
    Why do gloomy dude? At least you don't have three packs of hyenas ripping, trying to tear the country appart.

  7. #4117
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    @fiorellabel
    I think those will be jumpstarted when the new minister takes the office. As we already discussed, his background means he'll fight for the military, and tanks and VHS programs will certainly be started up.

    @Mujo2000
    No, we have one pack of hyenas disguised as various parties. The problem with that is that they don't waste time fighting amongst themselves and just go straight for ruining the country.

  8. #4118
    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    Hope so, in every case now the change is done and Croatia has a new MoD

    http://dalje.com/en/foto.php?id=18&rbr=3755&idrf=182414

    and a new Defendant's one:

    http://www.jutarnji.hr/predrag-matic-fred/194453/

    Both of them with an outstanding military career.

  9. #4119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoverhind View Post
    I disagree. As I wrote in my previous post, those sums are what the companies themselves are asking for. Keep in mind that a MiG-21 Bison was $3 million in 2000, today it is priced at 1.5 million. Prices have fallen dramatically.

    However, due to the nature of our political system and the fact that half of those running it can't stand Croatia being independent, I have to agree that some excuse will be found to only conduct the barest minimum of upgrades to comply with NATO standards.

    In best case scenario, we'll have 18 MiG-21-2000 in about a year, which will greatly outgun any potentially threat country in the region and give us air supremacy among ex-yu countries.
    Name a reliable source, stop the assumptions. And try some pics please.

    maintenance on 105 , in A.D.2006.?
    Attachments Pending Approval Attachments Pending Approval

  10. #4120
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiorellabel View Post
    Air supremacy against nothing is quite simply to achieve.
    x2

    But also, comparing oneself with ex-yu doesn't make sense, because Macedonia, Montenegro or Slovenia really are no benchmark air force wise.

    It makes more sense to compare yourself with your neighbours. Croatia shares most of its border with Bosnia & Herzegovina, Slovenia, Hungary, and (over the sea) Italy. Bosnia nor Slovenia don't have nor will have fighter aircraft in the next 10+ years. So they have air supremacy over Bosnia & Slovenia.

    Hungary and Italy are in the same military alliance with Croatia, the countries don't have disputes (afaik).

    Italy is over the sea and flies Eurofighters, so they are no imminent threat but also would be too strong anyway so even something better would be a waste of money.

    Hungary is right next door and already flies Gripens, so refurbished or upgraded Mig-21s won't be a match for them, but at the same time they don't have to, as they (Croatian MoD) seem pretty confident that nothing will happen until the resources of the "new" Migs run out and they buy something new, so it could turn out to be a smart choice. Especially if they use the free time and freed up resources to upgrade their ground forces and navy, buy new ships (maybe a corvette if they are lucky, that would also improve their sea rescue capabilities, which is important for a nation with such a large coastline), overhaul and upgrade tanks, buy IFVs etc.. so objectively, this could be a good move for the overall good of the Croatian military.

    I would've liked the Croatian Air Force to get new jets, that would also boost their Anti Ship capabilities and thus be a good substitute for the lack of larger and more powerful vessels.

    At the same time, it looks like at least two other countries in the region are getting new fighter jets instead of upgrading old ones. (But that doesn't have anything to do with Croatia, since they don't really seem to need them for now)
    Last edited by Hyde; 12-23-2011 at 01:40 PM.

  11. #4121
    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadeus View Post
    Name a reliable source, stop the assumptions. And try some pics please.

    maintenance on 105 , in A.D.2006.?
    No, old camo, before 2003 upgrade.

    I can't give you reliable sources, no official requests or offers are available to public. I can only tell you what I learned on Croatian aviation forums and from a few pilots. Those prices are also quoted in Slobodna Dalmacija article I linked a few posts back.


    @Hyde
    I agree that Croatian Armed Forces as a whole will be better off with this decision, especially with our new Minister of Defense, who is a special forces veteran and will push hard for the military. Hopefully, we'll se M-84D upgrade put into production soon, and I hope for an order of 30-40 new M-95s in a year or two. That could finally lead to a few orders from abroad.

    AShM capabilites will be a good addon once new jets are acquired in 7-10 years, but I'd rather see our RBS-15s upgraded to MkIII or even IV. That would give us a deep strike weapon and allow our missile boats and MOL launchers to sink anything up to a destroyer task force that sails into our territorial waters, and especially among our islands. I would also love to see another 5-9 MOL launchers built, 3 launchers for Croatia's coast is just embarrasing.

    We won't be buying Russian ships, but Gowind 200 corvettes have been talked about a while back, although it seems that MEKO design is more likely to be chosen when new ships are given a green light in a few years. I'd prefer a pair modified MEKO A-200SAN class.

  12. #4122
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    If you have the money for German ships, go for it. I just used the Soobrazitelny as an example picture because it looks good and is what I think a corvette should be like (and figured it could be a good fit for your navy).

    It's modern, it's light, it's relatively well armed for its size (which will even improve further after the next few hulls) and probably more affordable than Western made ships of the same displacement and/or armament. If you can have two/four for one/two, the "Place of Origin: Germany" in the documentation papers is no reason to buy just one ship, imho. Just because something is "Russian" is no reason to dismiss it, if it is technologically equal. But that's just my impartial opinion, I'm well aware that for a lot of people "Western" bears much more prestige and an image of quality and capability while at the same time "Russian" is synonymous to obsolete and cheap (in the bad way) even if it's not really the case.

  13. #4123
    Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    You misunderstood me, Stereguschy is an excellent warship design and capabilities wise I'd sooner call it a destroyer than a corvette. I would love to see our flag flying from a couple of those, which would give us an extremely potent warship, and not upgunned OPVs designed for PSO missions and capable of little else like much of western designs are.

    However, our lot has been thrown in with NATO and thus there's no chance of our government ordering Russian equipment of this size and complexity, even if you can get three of these for one western design with far less capable weapons systems. Our politicans lack the backbone to go for the best no matter what it is, and they are especially reluctant to equip our Armed Forces to the level they should be equipped.

    As I said before, I hope this'll change with the new Minister.

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    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    On this almost I think everione here agree, MiG-21 albeit obsolete still avoid the loss of CroAf supersonic capabilities and keep on in line with minimum Nato requirements.
    In meantime they would allow to keep on, if there will be the political will to do so, with the rest of the most necessary acquisition programmes of both army and Navy also in those times of economical turmoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoverhind View Post
    @Hyde
    I agree that Croatian Armed Forces as a whole will be better off with this decision, especially with our new Minister of Defense, who is a special forces veteran and will push hard for the military. Hopefully, we'll se M-84D upgrade put into production soon, and I hope for an order of 30-40 new M-95s in a year or two. That could finally lead to a few orders from abroad.

    AShM capabilites will be a good addon once new jets are acquired in 7-10 years, but I'd rather see our RBS-15s upgraded to MkIII or even IV.
    I'm sorry to say this but what the hell are you talking about?!?!

    Croatia cannot nor will it ever produce new tanks from scratch. The 2 Degmans we have are the 2 prototypes of the Vihor tank project that were left behind in 1991 and were modernized with the help of Israeli companies to the M-95 level as we know it today. After we figured out that producing a new tank type independently is impossible for us we concentrated on the modernization of the M-84 tanks to the M-84D standard. Why else do you think the whole M-95 Degman idea was cancelled in the first place? All the M-84s we produced up until 2003 (when last 5 were handed over to the army) were completed from the parts that were left behind at the Đuro Đaković factory in 1991, and some components that were missing were imported either from Slovenia, Poland or Russia. However, some sources say that after 2003 (when the production ended) there were still sufficient quantities of parts/components to produce further 10-14 M-84As but these were later used to maintain and overhaul older M-84s to the M-84A4 standard. What I'm trying to say is: You can forget the idea of 20-30-40 new M-95s, this was stated on numerous occasions by our politicians, military experts, ĐĐ officials etc. because we do not have the capabilities to produce completely new tanks on our own. The only thing we can do (and probably will soon enough) is to modernize existing 2 battalions to M-84D level... and even this requires Israeli (ERA armour, RCWS gun), French (communication equipment) and German (new tracks and possibly engine) help.

    As far as RBS-15s are concerned... The possibility of modernizing our current RBS-15 Mk.1 missiles to the Mk.4 level is impossible. Why? Beacuse the Mk.4 variant is still in development and will not be finished by 2014/2015 at best and because it will be such a radical redesign that it will be a completely new missile. Further on, the option of upgrading our missiles to the Mk.3 standard is also questionable because no such work was done so far and Mk.1s were only raised to the Mk.2 variant a decade ago (Finnish and Swedish missiles underwent this upgrade). The reason might be the same as in the case of the Mk.4, it is simply a much revised design and even the body of the rocket itself is much different, let alone the software.

    I'm not trying to lecture you here but be careful what you write and do your research before you post such information here.

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