Thread: Croatian Military Pictures! - Read the first post carefully!

  1. #4111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoverhind View Post
    And what makes you think lengthening the missile to make room for more fuel isn't doable? Nobody will develope an upgrade for the product that is incompatibile with all earlier versions. When they do, it ceases to be an upgrade and becomes a new product with a new name.

    I have no intention to argue on Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas guys!

    I repeat... AIM-9B and AIM-9X bare the same name but are completely different air-to-air missiles. Just the suffix changes and the original name stays the same but they are in no way comparable. The same works for RBS-15 missiles. And if it is so easy to lengthen the missile, then why does Sweden produce new units and doesn't just upgrade the old ones?! Another example... our air force operates MiG-21bisD... the latest model of the MiG-21 series, first one being the MiG-21F variant. It is possible to modernize both of them to, lets say Lancer standard, but MiG-21bis will nontheless have greater range, it will be heavier, take more payload etc. because its design/physichs is different and will thus remain always more capable. Same can be said for F-18C and F-18E.... they bare the same name, can have same armamament and sensors, but F-18E has longer and more powerful engines, completely different intakes, stronger landing gear, longer nose cone etc. and will always be more capable. In other words, upgrades to a certain extent are possible but not indefinitely.

    As for the corvettes... producing a Gowind or Meko design look-a-likes was always the only option for us and not building a completely own design (our own hull is an option but everything else will be different aka imported), so this is not comparable with the M-95 tanks which we want to sell as our own but are >70% foreign. Also.... all the senors and weapons will be imported, only the hull and possibly the engines will be home-made (engines being license-built). Other options are simply not viable! In other words... it is true, we are too small to produce high-tech complex systems on our own and will be forced to import most of the systems which then means that the system will not be our own product and would be more expensive than similar systems produced in large quantities by countries who are bigger and can produce more than 80-90% of the components on their own. We have to concetrate on smaller arms (guns/rifles (VHS), SLRS (RAK-12), light armoured vehicles (LOV) etc.), patrol boats and licensed production (Patria and Strela 10CRO). That's were we can be competitive and offer high quality products.

    Merry Christmas to all of you as well! I don not want to fight either but one has to be realistic.

  2. #4112
    Senior Member zg18's Avatar
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    Merry Christmas people!!!

  3. #4113
    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    To you also.

  4. #4114
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    Question Question

    Quote Originally Posted by SATNIK View Post
    What is Patria's model?

  5. #4115
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    Not Patria. It's a Strela-10 launcher on a domestic vehicle, called "S-10 CRO".

    Last edited by Hyde; 12-29-2011 at 12:15 PM.

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    Unhappy

    sorry.I mean what is chassis but not SAM system.

  7. #4117
    Senior Member Hyde's Avatar
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    The chassis used for the vehicle is that of a TAM-150 6x6 truck, on which a body of welded steel plates was placed.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
    The chassis used for the vehicle is that of a TAM-150 6x6 truck, on which a body of welded steel plates was placed.
    Thanks you.

  9. #4119
    Senior Member Hoverhind's Avatar
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    Our Armed Forces finally made an overhaul of their website. While the info is still very outdated (No Mi-171s or Helsinki class listed, etc), the site no longer looks like it was made in the 90s, and the info on it will hopefully be updated soon.

    It can also be viewed in english.

    http://www.osrh.hr/default.asp

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    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    Yes, a much welcomed change altought I fear it would limit itelf to became another internal bullettin like the MORH one.

    In every case I tried with the aid of my vocabulary to understood the literary meaning of croatian ranks and still I found somewhat confused.
    First consideration: Croatian ranks seems to be focused on concepts of functional role and command autority.

    Even in the lowest rank, we have not a soldier (One that earns the military wage) or even less a private (One that serve individually and command no one) but a Pozornik meaning [the one that call for alert (pozor)], so sentinel or even better watchmen can be an appropriate translation.
    Consequently the corrispondent rank to private first class is a Razvodnik meaning usher, watchpost commander (so not a private at all).

    Another peculiarity, that seem to conferm the focus about autority, is that in Croatian Army there is a rank insigna even for the Pozornik:
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    Last edited by fiorellabel; 12-31-2011 at 08:13 AM.

  11. #4121
    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    Sretna Nova! Happy New Year!

  12. #4122

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    Hm hm. has the fact that new MoD was a soldier effected this year's article about presidents New Year address to our soldiers abroad
    Check last year compared to this year
    Much much shorter and without any identity of those who were talking with the Commander in chief
    Perhaps Kotromanović wants to enhance the confidentiality of some data

    But, on the other hand... he almost stands attention while officer reports to president

    Still, aside from decision to return MoD seat back to town, we didn't hear much about future plans. Yet.

  13. #4123
    Senior Member fiorellabel's Avatar
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    Default It seems it will begin to work very fast.

    It seems also he would be back at work very fast.

    http://www.morh.hr/hr/vijesti-najave...ca-na-hvu.html

    Hope that with that the loooong pause for election and government change would be over.

  14. #4124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikojan View Post
    I'm sorry to say this but what the hell are you talking about?!?!

    Croatia cannot nor will it ever produce new tanks from scratch. The 2 Degmans we have are the 2 prototypes of the Vihor tank project that were left behind in 1991 and were modernized with the help of Israeli companies to the M-95 level as we know it today. After we figured out that producing a new tank type independently is impossible for us we concentrated on the modernization of the M-84 tanks to the M-84D standard. Why else do you think the whole M-95 Degman idea was cancelled in the first place? All the M-84s we produced up until 2003 (when last 5 were handed over to the army) were completed from the parts that were left behind at the Đuro Đaković factory in 1991, and some components that were missing were imported either from Slovenia, Poland or Russia. .... The only thing we can do (and probably will soon enough) is to modernize existing 2 battalions to M-84D level... and even this requires Israeli (ERA armour, RCWS gun), French (communication equipment) and German (new tracks and possibly engine) help....
    I'm not trying to lecture you here but be careful what you write and do your research before you post such information here.
    I'm sorry to say this but what the hell are YOU talking about?!?!

    In the period from '91-'98 there where different examples of M-84 produced/patched together from various parts, left from Yu or imported. But a series of 20 pcs. of M-84A4 was buit from scratch in ĐĐ. Components were built or imported. Those M-84A4 used the new FCS, and that goverment order was to be some 50 pcs. but was canceled. Conteract was signed in '99, lasted '01-'03. But it seems ĐĐ build some chassies and aguierd parts and they are stored now, partialy paid.
    Degman is not a Vihor, it is a follow up (or down)! There was a single Vihor body that was left in Sr.(mated with M-84 turret). There were two cast Vihor turrets in ĐĐ. They were mated to a M-84 body to form first Degman prototypes. Later a welded turret was built for Degman,( if you bother to search look on ĐĐ website under "montaža", there is the picture). Degman ended just as a prototype program. What is most important in M-84D is that it is a complete overhaul of older M-84s, upgrade with things learned from Degman and use of some new equipment is a bonus.

    All that stuff about producing a new tank type independently is impossible , well M-84, Degman etc, it just a T-72 with upgrades, and there are a lot of parts you can buy. Degman is even more easier to build in DD since it has wellded turret, but it's just a money issue, nothing more. Look, even if we built them in numbers, then what? To what units they should/could go to?

    I'm not trying to lecture YOU here but be careful what you write and do YOUR research before you post such information here.

  15. #4125
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    We built all the M-84A4s from scratch?! To build sth from scratch means to produce all the components on your own but you yourself said: "In the period from '91-'98 there where different examples of M-84 produced/patched together from various parts, left from Yu or imported". Immediatley after that you said. "But a series of 20 pcs. of M-84A4 was buit from scratch in ĐĐ. Components were built or imported." - you basically repeated the same thing, most parts had to be imported or were already present in the factory.

    The M-84A4s were produced/patched together on the same basis as all the tanks produced from 1991 till 1998, but this time the tank had some improvements (FAC Omega) and the government signed a deal with the factory securing that all the tanks were produced on the same level, with strictly determined dead-lines of delivery etc., unlike the tanks which were assembled '91-'98 when every example was financed independently and delivered as soon as the parts became avilable (due to arms embargo, attacks on the factory, insecure financing...).

    About the M-95 Degman - one prototype used the old chassis, the other used the left-behind turret, and we produced a single new turret but coupled it with an already existing body. So, basically, neither of the two prototypes were our own products. So what exactly did you correct in my post? And also, a true Degman version was to have the "Vihor" body and a new turret, this means that it is no longer just a T-72/M-84 upgrade.

    Finally, we actually agreed on the same thing so I don't get it what exactly you wanted to correct in my post:
    1) All the M-84s produced after 1991 used components either already existent or imported. (you said it also)
    2) No further M-95 will ever be produced because the there is no money or need for them. (you said it also)

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