Croatian Military Pictures! - Read the first post carefully!

[Hoverhind]

A commemoration was held today at the House of the Croatian Armed Forces "Zvonimir" in honor of the late General Imra Agotić. Many came to pay their respects, including the Commander-in-Chief Ivo Josipović, Chief of the General Staff General Drago Lovrić, Defense Minister Ante Kotromoanović and many others.

President Josipović said that General Agotić's role in the establishment of modern Armed Forces and the Croatian Air Force and its fighter component is immeasurable.

General Lovrić spoke of General Agotić's great courage and honor, adding: "General Agotić always believed that one can never give too much for Croatia... He was a good man and a great man, and we looked up to him."

"Croatian Air Force aircraft will always remind us of his achievements whenever they fly through Croatian skies."

















This sad occasion also created a ray of hope. In his speech, Defense Minister vowed to Imra Agotić that Croatian Air Force will not loose its capabilities, including the one Imra fought for hardest, the fighter component.

http://www.morh.hr/hr/vijesti-najave...a-agotica.html

Neka mu je vječna slava i hvala.

[Gvozdansko 1578.]

One PC-12 with a payload of 1,500kg as a replacement for 2 An-32BV with a payload of nearly 14,000kg.... a decent switch! :/

Btw.... according to www.defender.hr, we will maintain +20 RBS-15 operational until the end of their service lifes (probably until 2018-2019) but do you really think we will replace them with something new seen as this was stated in the recent document. I'm asking this because everytime there was a "maybe" in our official defence plans, that "maybe" became "nothing".

http://www.defender.hr/republika-hrv...ske-drzave.php

Hrvatska vojska je u posljednjih deset godina ogoljena do kože, a ništa bolje joj se ne piše niti u idućih deset godina, sve pod izlikom mjera štednje i kolektivne obrane u sklopu NATO saveza. Ozbiljniji vojnoindustrijski kompleks ne postoji, a jedino čime se Hrvatska može pohvaliti jest osobna oprema vojnika domaće proizvodnje.Hrvatska jednostavno ne može ostati bez kapaciteta proizvodnje vojnih gusjeničara i točkaša.

Even DDSV is in jeopardy, and quoted sentence from the article states enough:

Croatian army in last decade has been stripped to the bone, and nothing better is in sight for the next ten years, all under excuse of cutback measures and NATO collective i.e. smart defense. Serious military industry complex does not exist, and all that Croatia has to show for is domestically produced soldier's personal equipment. Croatia simply can not loose the capacity of producing wheeled and tracked military vehicles.

Also, another good article about recently proposed Strategic Review of Defense:
http://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/struc...-clanak-388567
Every reasonable expert, military leaders from Homeland war, ask same question:
How and why?
And answer lies here:

To je potpuno u skladu s onim što iz NATO-a Hrvatskoj već dugo predlažu; obučite do NATO-ove razine vojnike, osposobite i opremite 50 posto tih snaga za mirovne operacije u svijetu, uz to još imajte dvadesetak transportnih, ne borbenih helikoptera, od koji će 40 posto biti na raspolaganju za vanjske misije..., umrežite i vaše radare i... drugo vam ne treba, sada ste pod NATO-kišobranom.

translated:

Strategic Review of Defense is completely in accordance with proposals that Croatia gets from NATO for some time now: train soldiers to the NATO level, equip 50% of those forces for missions abroad, with that keep around 20 transport, not assault, helicopters of which 40% will be on disposal for foreign missions, create radar grid and.. no need for anything else, you are now under NATO umbrella.

Well, some people believed around 1900. or even 1912. that Austro-Hungary will last for decades to come...and we know how that ended.
Even in 1988. no one in Yugoslavia could foretell that three years later country will be falling apart in most brutal European war since 1945.

We live in era of dynamic history, Croatian peacetime is still underage (yes people, 17 yrs ago we were in war) - and we're reducing armed forces to source of mostly middle-aged peacekeepers.
Some on this thread are still optimists, but they will have a brutal wake up call.

Croatia currently has no ambition whatsoever as a country, no plan, no strategy and no goals.. it's just living one day after another.
That only reflects on the armed forces that could have been much more:
- navy capable of not only control of national waters but dominant role on the east side of Adriatic/Ionian sea
- air force that could be regional factor of security (since only other ex-YU country with supersonic fighters is still dedicated to no-NATO policy)
- compact ground force that will not renounce tanks, antiaircraft or any other component.

I will state here that current armed forces of Croatia would be in no shape of conducting actions like Maslenica (Gusar) or Medak.. not to mention large scale operations form 1995.
Apart from (kind of) fancy uniforms and helmets, there is nothing else to show for.

[fiorellabel]

I understand your disappointment Gvozdansko, but I doesn't agree to most of your conclusion:
Croatian Navy lack not "dominant role on the east side of Adriatic/Ionian sea" that it really has now and would still have also with only 25 rbs-15, but precisely control of national waters against smuggling and illegal fishery so acquisition of patrol boat is absolutely correct.
It seems at the moment that some fighter would be acquired so that pert apparently goes smooth.
Problems is in strategical perspective: Croatia look forward overseas deployment when it has a Failed /Rogue state just south of river Sava.
Actually it is still calm but...
What would happen when to avoid bankrupt funding for former federation veterans would be cut?
When 80% Herzeg-croats would be elegible to have a Schengen croatian passport when they are actually second class citized in BiH?
What would happen when BiH would be denied EU membership because all parts of their costitution is an insult to all European values, while all other neighboring countries will be in?
It is probable that all of these scenarios would have place BEFORE 2020 and not, I don't think former ArBiH, Vrs, HOS and HVO members would be impressed by Hummers and PC-12.

[Gvozdansko 1578.]

I understand your disappointment Gvozdansko, but I doesn't agree to most of your conclusion:
Croatian Navy lack not "dominant role on the east side of Adriatic/Ionian sea" that it really has now and would still have also with only 25 rbs-15, but precisely control of national waters against smuggling and illegal fishery so acquisition of patrol boat is absolutely correct.
It seems at the moment that some fighter would be acquired so that pert apparently goes smooth.
Problems is in strategical perspective: Croatia look forward overseas deployment when it has a Failed /Rogue state just south of river Sava.
Actually it is still calm but...
What would happen when to avoid bankrupt funding for former federation veterans would be cut?
When 80% Herzeg-croats would be elegible to have a Schengen croatian passport when they are actually second class citized in BiH?
What would happen when BiH would be denied EU membership because all parts of their costitution is an insult to all European values, while all other neighboring countries will be in?
It is probable that all of these scenarios would have place BEFORE 2020 and not, I don't think former ArBiH, Vrs, HOS and HVO members would be impressed by Hummers and PC-12.

Here we agree that BiH is a failed state as such, a mere protectorate of international community, country in which 2 out of 3 constitutional nations would gladly see its demise.

Problem in current Croatian leadership is Region-phanatism and painting the rather dark picture of it with bright colors. No need to explain what is understood by the term Region or Regija, former exYU countries + Albania (with ommited Slovenia, at least when EU in concerned, NATO puts Slovenia also in regional frame).
Of course, any form of violent conflict in BiH is now rather distant scenario, but all together The Region is far from picture that Croatia's president (raised in yugoslav spirit) imagines to be true.
No one wants overspending of national budget in military (like Greece did in past years) but Croatian leaders obviously don't understand what NATO membership really means.
It is not: now I'm under umbrella, I will spend some peanuts for the army, in case of any crisis NATO allies will come and defend me. Yeah, right.
It doesn't work that way.
And no one of neighboring NATO countries will rush into air-policing over Croatia without significant payments or compensations from our side.
Because no one wants to spend their resources over foreign country.

You really have to ask are Croatians capable of learning anything from expirience of three failed multinational integrations they were in in last 100 years. Or are we historically dyslexic?

[Psycho☻]

Here we agree that BiH is a failed state as such, a mere protectorate of international community, country in which 2 out of 3 constitutional nations would gladly see its demise.

Problem in current Croatian leadership is Region-phanatism and painting the rather dark picture of it with bright colors. No need to explain what is understood by the term Region or Regija, former exYU countries + Albania (with ommited Slovenia, at least when EU in concerned, NATO puts Slovenia also in regional frame).
Of course, any form of violent conflict in BiH is now rather distant scenario, but all together The Region is far from picture that Croatia's president (raised in yugoslav spirit) imagines to be true.
No one wants overspending of national budget in military (like Greece did in past years) but Croatian leaders obviously don't understand what NATO membership really means.
It is not: now I'm under umbrella, I will spend some peanuts for the army, in case of any crisis NATO allies will come and defend me. Yeah, right.
It doesn't work that way.
And no one of neighboring NATO countries will rush into air-policing over Croatia without significant payments or compensations from our side.
Because no one wants to spend their resources over foreign country.

You really have to ask are Croatians capable of learning anything from expirience of three failed multinational integrations they were in in last 100 years. Or are we historically dyslexic?

I generally agree with you. I'd just add that Slovenia would pay NATO (Italy) for partial Air Policing (fighter component) only when irregular intervention is involved (so far happened once). Croatian media, though, claimed in the past that Slovenia pays Italy (although contract is betwen Slovenia-NATO and NATO-Italy) yearly app. 40 million EUR - but such statement was overruled by Slovenian MoD as it is not true. So when "big financial obligations" regarding NATO Air Policing are involved, I'd like to know what model your statements lie on.

EDIT: Slovenia looks forward with the current Air Policing solution, as well as the Baltic States (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...c-air-patrols/).

[SATNIK]

Can some one please I.D. the sniper rifle ?

Taking off top red dot sight for helicopter assault on the ship kills my every sense of tactical. BSD are so good that they dont use CQB sights.

. About fighter replacement and talks about 20 mil E for MiG 21 purchase and update its just a plain rip off of funds and corruption.I remember reading a article that a private collector bought MIG 21 bis in fly condition for 100 000 Dollars. I guess than the NATO radio and navigation cost 19 mil E like they are from Zagorec diamonds.
Now you can by MiG21 like scrap metal on kilograms but no for Croatia this will be the new fighter replacement for Air Farce.

[Hoverhind]

I generally agree with you. I'd just add that Slovenia would pay NATO (Italy) for partial Air Policing (fighter component) only when irregular intervention is involved (so far happened once). Croatian media, though, claimed in the past that Slovenia pays Italy (although contract is betwen Slovenia-NATO and NATO-Italy) yearly app. four million EUR - but such statement was overruled by Slovenian MoD as it is not true. So when "big financial obligations" regarding NATO Air Policing are involved, I'd like to know what model your statements lie on.

AMI provides air policing to Slovenia from its own bases. Croatia is far larger than Slovenia and air policing would not be possible from any one country's home base. Italian or other NATO fighters would have to be permanently deployed to Croatia along with all support equipment and personnel, similar to Baltic Air Policing. Also, due to Croatia's complicated shape, a single fighter base is not enough and at least two QRA locations would have to be set up for complete coverage.

We'd be paying for all of that, and probably in the price range of maintaining our own fighters. Fortunately, fighter component will be kept, such as it is, and new fighters can realistically be expected in 7-10 years at best.

[Hoverhind]

The President has finally made the decision regarding our fighter component, and decided to keep it. Half of our remaining MiGs will be sent to Aerostar for an overhaul and additional MiG-21s will be bought to bring the squadron to 12 aircraft.

New fighters will be ordered when economy improves.

http://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/hrvat...-clanak-390039

[Gvozdansko 1578.]

The President has finally made the decision regarding our fighter component, and decided to keep it. Half of our remaining MiGs will be sent to Aerostar for an overhaul and additional MiG-21s will be bought to bring the squadron to 12 aircraft.

New fighters will be ordered when economy improves.

http://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/hrvat...-clanak-390039

Another one of "according to high source" articles.

Prije godinu dana delegacija ruskog proizvođača obavila je inspekciju hrvatske eskadrile i zaključila da je pola aviona za otpis. Vrlo je vjerojatno da će se remontirati opet u Rumunjskoj, i to u tvornici "Aerostar", kao i 2003. godine. Rumunjska remontira svojih stotinjak MiG-ova 21 Bis (Lancer), tako da HRZ brzo može nabaviti još nekoliko zrakoplova i formirati eskadrilu. Ona broji 12 zrakoplova, a vjerojatno je da će se RH odlučiti nabaviti osam jednosjeda i četiri dvosjeda, koji služe i za obuku pilota. To će stajati otprilike dvadeset milijuna eura, možda i manje.

From where will Croatia get new fighters? From Romania? Are they selling?
If you read this - you can get the picture that we're getting all 12 new (if new is the word to be used when Fishbeds are in question) fighters. With 10 operational MiGs of which 5 according to Russians are still to be counted with - that will make 17 planes..

Kaže da je najjednostavnije remont obaviti u Rumunjskoj, s kojom imamo iskustva i u devet godina s migovima koji su tamo remontirani nismo imali problema.

Seriously, no problems?
In 2009. near Karlovac parts were falling off from plane training for Armed Forces Day fly over...

Better old buckets than nothing, but having Mig 21s as a solution in 2012. just show how pauperized NATO member we are..
And all by our fault because OSRH are being neglected waaay before the effects of global crisis that is used as an excuse for defense underspending in last 4 years.

[fiorellabel]

When I will have official confirmation I will open a botte of Champagne!

Huumh, oh well, maybe for Mig 21 a bottle of Bakarska Vodica would suffice.

[fiorellabel]

Something I don't understand fully:
according to those article http://www.vjesnik.hr/Article.aspx?I...1-8B30692419FB of not-yellow newspaper Vjesnik, there will be also the presentation of a long range development plan following that unsadisfactory Stategical perspective document.
Hope a final word about fighters would come with it.

[fiorellabel]

About the often misunderstood concept of "Smart defence" here a report of a visit of the commander of armed forces to Slovenia.
In this case words are about partecipation of croatian soldiers to mountain warfare training courses.

[Gvozdansko 1578.]

Something I don't understand fully:
according to those article http://www.vjesnik.hr/Article.aspx?I...1-8B30692419FB of not-yellow newspaper Vjesnik, there will be also the presentation of a long range development plan following that unsadisfactory Stategical perspective document.
Hope a final word about fighters would come with it.

As for tanks M-84 and BVP-80 that are mentioned.. well, BVP (IFC) could be replaced by Patrias in IFC configuration.
If existing tanks are not to be modernized to M84-D standard, perhaps small number of German Leos could be obtained afer 2016.

When you've mentioned RBS-15 as primary weapon of HRM that makes her No.1 force on the east side of whole coast north of Otranto, Grippen as plane capable of carrying those missiles would be very significant in sense of defense of Adriatic, even more than RTOPs themselves.

[vodin]

Croatian Mig-21 for 21st. Century. Brave solution.

[vodin]

Here we agree that BiH is a failed state as such, a mere protectorate of international community, country in which 2 out of 3 constitutional nations would gladly see its demise.

Problem in current Croatian leadership is Region-phanatism and painting the rather dark picture of it with bright colors. No need to explain what is understood by the term Region or Regija, former exYU countries + Albania (with ommited Slovenia, at least when EU in concerned, NATO puts Slovenia also in regional frame).

Which particular regional cooperation you have in mind. I do not know for such arrangement, when recently the regional Smart Defense agreement for Air defence agreed, Slovenia was not mentioned in such arangement.