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Thread: South African National Defence Force

  1. #2911
    Member Foxtrot Alpha Whiskey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boshoed View Post
    Gah, no. We should stick to the Ratel. Tried and tested, and made specifically for the South African terrain.
    And 40 years old.

  2. #2912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boshoed View Post
    Gah, no. We should stick to the Ratel. Tried and tested, and made specifically for the South African terrain.
    Maybe. But I'll take a Leopard or Challenger tank, over the Olifant, they're not designed for the Bush either, but will be perfectly good. Same for an Apache over a Rooivalk, etc. Ratel is out of date, was out of almost date twenty years ago.

    What unit were you in Moduler?

  3. #2913

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    Ratel is reportedly falling apart from old age and not well suited to terrain such as jungle, which is where the SANDF expect to operate. The comment was made that the new Badger lacks all round visibility and gunports. I see the vehicles now marketed by BAE Land Systems and Paramount all incorporate those features, which makes one wonder why the SA Army chose the Badger and not a South African design. Maybe it is more suitable to different types of terrain than the Ratel.
    Last edited by Mazarin; 05-23-2014 at 04:34 AM. Reason: correction

  4. #2914
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    My comment was in jest, granted, the Ratel is old, but, I think we should use a South African Design, (My own opinion.) over the Badger, the Badger is a nice vehicle, I just don't think it's as suited for the terrain, as the Ratel, or a South African design is. The big advantage the Badger has over the Ratel, is the Badger is sealed. The Ratel is not.

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    Senior Member Dinges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boshoed View Post
    My comment was in jest, granted, the Ratel is old, but, I think we should use a South African Design, (My own opinion.) over the Badger, the Badger is a nice vehicle, I just don't think it's as suited for the terrain, as the Ratel, or a South African design is. The big advantage the Badger has over the Ratel, is the Badger is sealed. The Ratel is not.
    I have to agree that the Ratel as a base vehicle to develop from could have saved a shedload of funds and kept the local industry ticking over , and might have delivered a very capable vehicle. And as to the Badger's (even though a very capable platform) ability to seal up , I do not see the obvious advantage as in our possible theaters we do not cross open waters or face a tangible NBC threat.

  6. #2916
    Member Cpl Kat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinges View Post
    I have to agree that the Ratel as a base vehicle to develop from could have saved a shedload of funds and kept the local industry ticking over , and might have delivered a very capable vehicle. And as to the Badger's (even though a very capable platform) ability to seal up , I do not see the obvious advantage as in our possible theaters we do not cross open waters or face a tangible NBC threat.
    That's a great idea. There is not much wrong with the design of the base Ratel vehicle. Disassemble it right down to the core platform and build it up again into a more modern configuration as needed. Upgrade any systems that require it and be done with it.

  7. #2917
    **** you 20122. how goes does gaz type drunk? dricl. man Hellfish's Avatar
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    All that costs development money.The Badger is probably more expensive per hull than an indigenously developed vehicle, but it can be fielded faster, cost less development money, and has had a lot of the kinks already worked out.

  8. #2918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinges View Post
    I have to agree that the Ratel as a base vehicle to develop from could have saved a shedload of funds and kept the local industry ticking over , and might have delivered a very capable vehicle. And as to the Badger's (even though a very capable platform) ability to seal up , I do not see the obvious advantage as in our possible theaters we do not cross open waters or face a tangible NBC threat.
    But you might....




  9. #2919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfish View Post
    All that costs development money.The Badger is probably more expensive per hull than an indigenously developed vehicle, but it can be fielded faster, cost less development money, and has had a lot of the kinks already worked out.
    The Badger is not a stock "off-the-shelf" Patria AMV vehicle.

    The Patria AMV was modified for the SANDF to offer a higher level of ballistic protection and better bottom mine protection. It has also a different internal configuration and a different turret.

    All that took development costs as well.

    So it comes down to a cost benefit comparison between turning a Ratel into a Badger or turning the Patria AMV into a Badger. There are development costs advantages / disadvantages for both.

  10. #2920
    **** you 20122. how goes does gaz type drunk? dricl. man Hellfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpl Kat View Post
    The Badger is not a stock "off-the-shelf" Patria AMV vehicle.

    The Patria AMV was modified for the SANDF to offer a higher level of ballistic protection and better bottom mine protection. It has also a different internal configuration and a different turret.

    All that took development costs as well.

    So it comes down to a cost benefit comparison between turning a Ratel into a Badger or turning the Patria AMV into a Badger. There are development costs advantages / disadvantages for both.
    Not anymore. One cost is already sunk.

  11. #2921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfish View Post
    Not anymore. One cost is already sunk.
    I understand that. As this is a done deal this discussion is moot.

    The Ratel served us well. Hopefully the Badger meets expectations.

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    I gonna say this better for Africa to buy the RG41 8x8 support local industry give the confident to foreign customer. How to sell the RG41 to Gulf arab if the own governors can is no into? Patria AMV is nice but no benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laworkerbee View Post
    But you might....



    Touché!



    Great read that , except in the first? issue it was "Rookiat" left right and center. Proofreader fail.

  14. #2924
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    Second opening of parliament for 2014

    (Photos: Dalene Coetzee)
















  15. #2925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book View Post
    I gonna say this better for Africa to buy the RG41 8x8 support local industry give the confident to foreign customer. How to sell the RG41 to Gulf arab if the own governors can is no into? Patria AMV is nice but no benefit.
    I have not worked in the RSA Defense Industry for many years now, so what follows may no longer be true.

    Referring back to the 90s, the military could not go out and buy or build whatever they wanted. Instead they had to follow a very long and cumbersome process.

    It starts with a military branch defining a new or changed operational requirement, and then describing what equipment is needed to meet this operational requirement.

    The specific criteria and capabilities for the equipment has to be described to an extreme degree of detail.

    If and when the operational requirement is approved as being valid, the budget approval process is next.

    Once everything is finally approved then procurement can start.

    Note: it was common for a new operational requirement to take approximately 5 years to get the funding lined up and 10 years from first submission to getting what was asked for.

    If the equipment will be purchased they will compare the operational criteria and specifications to what is currently being sold both locally or internationally.

    Even if there is an acceptable stock item it typically requires some customization or reconfiguration, e.g. making a Patria into a Badger.

    If nothing meets the operational requirement or the specific criteria, the decision may be made to build it from scratch.

    They of course look very closely at the total costs, not only of initial procurement but of the complete life cycle costs including parts, life expectancy, etc.

    So when a country does not select a locally produced weapon system, it should mean that the system did not meet the operational criteria or specifications.

    Hopefully the decision of what system is selected is based purely on the operation requirement and criteria, and not based on personal preferences or some "other" influences.

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