South African National Defence Force

[dangamvura]

without wanting to be controversial, I find it hard to respect the current SA military forces - particularly in light of stats like 40% HIV positive members in SANDF, and the SAS Manthatisi, SANavy's new sub - being sailed into a quay, damaging it before it was even deployed. The SA Air force apparently doesn't have enough pilots to fly the Grippens it ordered either. But then I suppose we can always ask the Cubans to do it for us...

[Maktab]

without wanting to be controversial, I find it hard to respect the current SA military forces - particularly in light of stats like 40% HIV positive members in SANDF, and the SAS Manthatisi, SANavy's new sub - being sailed into a quay, damaging it before it was even deployed. The SA Air force apparently doesn't have enough pilots to fly the Grippens it ordered either. But then I suppose we can always ask the Cubans to do it for us...

That information is somewhat outdated and most of it is wrong.

While the HIV/AIDS rate in the SANDF remains high (I don't have an exact figure), the intake of new recruits over the last few years as part of the MSDS has dramatically reduced the AIDS rate and improved the force's age ratio. There remain certain units which are pretty pathetic, but there a number of units with young and fit soldiers and good leadership elements in the Army at the moment.

The SAS 'Manthathisi did not 'sail into a quay', it sustained minor damage to the rear edge of the starboard aft diving plane which touched the quay during what I believe was inclement weather. The damage did not affect the operational effectiveness of the submarine and it took part in a subsequent joint SAN-NATO exercise without any problems.

The submarine is at present in the submarine shed awaiting overhaul, largely as a result of an incident where batteries were incorrectly connected by a contractor causing damage to a number of them. The local overhaul was supposed to have happened a while ago, but it has been delayed because the SA Navy is allocated insufficient funding and they've decided to prioritise operational missions like the anti-piracy deployment to the Mozambique Channel over getting the 'Mathathisi back into the water. The other two submarines are sufficient for the SAN's present operational needs and get a significant amount of sea time.

As for the SA Air Force, there are around 9 or 10 active pilots in 2 Squadron on Gripens, with somewhat more pilots in 85 CFS and elsewhere who are qualified on the aircraft and could be used if necessary. That's also sufficient for current operational needs, while the rate of pilots resigning has declined and there are some excellent new young pilots on their way to the jet line.

The SANDF continues to have problems, many caused by insufficient funding owing to the fact that other departments such as Health & Policing quite rightly have priority in the national budget. But it's not the totally incompetent and useless shambles that popular rumour would have us all believe.

[dangamvura]

appreciate your positive attitude, and sorry to be negative, but be honest, the evidence of decline is overwhelming. JG Engelbrecht (Admiral) gave SADF AIDS figures in 2004 of 89% of 'soldiers' naive enough to be tested. Do you think the balance refused to be tested because they knew they were healthy? Why is Sisulu so desperate to hide current stats - because they've improved? The sub was disabled in peacetime, in a harbour, by incompetent operators - imagine their incompetence at sea, or under fire. Greatest concern is the absence of a real military ethos - have you ever seen members of the US Marine Corps, or British Paras mutiny and riot against their leadership as happened in Pretoria? Imagine leading those 'troops' in a fire-fight...

[Maktab]

So in truth you came here to rant and rave, not to ask a legitimate question, and you didn't really want an accurate answer. Figures.

The 2004 study was extremely limited and not representative of the entire military. Not even Engelbrecht claimed that the statistic could be extrapolated across the entire defence force and I've never heard of him disputing the 23-40% estimate of HIV/AIDS prevalence in the SANDF in the early 2000s.

Nor does that refute my point, as the MSDS and Project Phidisa (the HIV/AIDS research and treatment project) only really got underway after 2004. Entire battalions have been just-about replaced from the bottom up with post-2004 AIDS-free MSDS recruits and have performed very well in operations both inside and outside South Africa. Don't forget that it has been nearly a decade since 2004 and that a lot can, and did, change in that period of time.

Things are not yet perfect, but the trend is good so far. A lot will depend on how well the SANDF's leadership handle the next ten years and they still have plenty of opportunity to screw things up, but the improvements should be recognised even as we highlight the remaining problems.

Your claim that the sub was damaged by incompetent operators is without basis. First of all, even the world's most professional navies damage their ships with some frequency in peacetime through various accidents, many of which are avoidable. If slightly dinging a ship in poor weather automatically renders the entire navy incompetent, then the SAN is in good company as it's joined by the USN and RN amongst others. Need I remind you that the SADF-era SAN had its fair share of accidents too, including fatal ones?

The claim is also belied by the good performance of the SAN's submarine crews in numerous international naval exercises over the years and the positive comments of observers who have seen them in action.

Lastly, the actions of those soldiers at the Union Buildings was a reflection on a bad unit where the leadership had broken down completely, not on the entire defence force. It would be unfair to tar all other soldiers with the same brush when they weren't protesting that day and didn't approve of what happened.

[dangamvura]

So 40% HIV+ is ok? Consider the medical implications of combat and HIV - medic will have to be real careful, won't he?
AIDS free recruits? Section 7, Employment Equity Act 1998: "No employer may require an employee, or an applicant for employment, to undertake an HIV test in order to ascertain that employee’s HIV status." So how do we know that our recruits are AIDS free? The SANDF must now consider it's member's T-cell count before deploying him - what a bizarre situation. Wonder if the USMC has the same problem?
"performed very well in operations" - what operations - handing USAID grain bags to starving Ethiopians? The SANDF has no battle experience - probably just as well...
Ever hear of 'Leadership breaking down completely' in the history of the SADF?
We should believe Sisulu, that the SANDF is ok - rather than an impartial Jane's Defence consultant like Heitmann, who questions the SANDF's combat readiness. Sure. Viva eh

[Maktab]

Who said a 40% HIV+ rate was ok? I've only said that the SANDF hit a low-point in the early-to-mid-2000s and that both its age profile and HIV+ rate have been improving since then.

The SANDF is exempt from the Employment Equity Act. I'm surprised you did not know that. Indeed until recently it had in place a policy whereby new recruits had to HIV-negative and that those who tested positive or refused testing were ineligible for foreign deployment and would not have their contracts renewed. They've had to change this policy as the result of a court challenge which resulted in a ruling that it was unconstitutional to bar a soldier from enlistment or deployment merely due to their HIV status, so they've replaced it with a more nuanced policy where members with HIV are carefully monitored and only deployed during the stages when they are healthy - which recent research has managed to lengthen quite significantly. Thereafter they are treated the same as soldiers with any other illness which renders them unable to be deployed.

The SANDF is not permitted to force all its soldiers to get HIV tests, but they have spent a significant amount of time and effort into having as many soldiers get tested as possible while containing the spread of the disease. The latest estimates based on the data are that the SANDF HIV rate may very well be below the national average. Which returns me to my previous point, which is that while there are still significant problems there have been serious improvements that ought to be recognised.

As for operations, you are clearly ignorant of the SANDF's actions and role both the various peacekeeping operations on the African continent and the anti-piracy patrols off of Mozambique. In the eastern DRC in particular SA Army soldiers have frequently had to engage in actual peace enforcement operations, repelling rebel attacks, leading raids into rebel encampments and so on. It's obviously not full-blown war, but nor has it been 'handing USAID grain bags to starving Ethiopians'. I recommend that you educate yourself on what's really happening out there.

With regards to Römer-Heitman's opinion, I am well acquainted will all of his writing on the SANDF and for the most part I agree with it. His comments about perpetual underfunding presenting a serious danger to the SANDF's combat readiness are correct and if you read my comments properly you'll find that I have not contradicted that. However Römer-Heitman has not claimed, as you have here, that the SANDF is useless, incompetent and incapable of performing acceptably on the missions to which it is assigned. In fact quite the opposite, as he has usually been quick to praise the progress that the SANDF has made in many aspects ofter the last few years.

Regardless, I think it's clear that your viewpoint is fixed and based on on inaccurate and outdated reports which confirm your worldview to such an extent that no amount of new evidence will make you change your mind. As such I think there's little point in continuing this.

[dangamvura]

the HIV rate 'has been improving'? figures? Unless you have figures, it's all govt hot air. You can't test, so you don't know. I suggest the rate has worsened - from my own observations. Essential services are exempt from some provisions of the Act - but no employer may test without a Labour Court order authorising it - which you don't have, you cannot test.
'Estimates', based on what 'data'? this is govt spin. 'Serious improvements'? in what - improvements like your 'Major General' Nyanda - whose sole qualification for top job in the SANDF was having led a 'guerilla' rabble in a campaign in which mostly civilians were killed, and who is now under investigation for state tender fraud involving millions.
So the SANDF is battle-ready because it's been on peace keeping operations and anti piracy patrols? Please. How many rounds have been fired in combat against a credible enemy force - not a few Somalian pirates or Congolese bandits armed with a couple of AK's and RPG's. Like I said, viva ne?

[Skippy_Doolittle]

Maybe you should take this to PM as opposed to hijacking the thread over such issues. A quick search (Google is my friend) of the said submarine shows that she was in a 'storm' or inclement weather when she was damaged against the quay, as Maktab stated. I would ask your experience in regards to the handling of a submarine when she is surfaced in rough weather.

As well, you may find that on this site, there are many soldiers whose sole experiences involve 'Peacekeeping' operations - and that they experienced much combat in these UN roles. I cannot speak for SA, however I think that unless statistics and experienced is referenced, your rants are unsubstantiated. Oh yeah, and your combat experience is...

[Skippy_Doolittle]

I will not even touch the AIDS issue as I have nothing to speak to it.

[Foxtrot Alpha Whiskey]

Where are your figures? ^^^

[dangamvura]

. I cannot speak for SA,

you said it

[Foxtrot Alpha Whiskey]

A quick Google search of your name brings up a lot of Zimbabwe references, are you just a Zimbabwean trying to trash the SANDF? If so then I would look at your own state of affairs before trashing others.

[Dinges]

you said it

I can speak fo SA and what SD was saying is relevant. And what you have been saying , unless you can back up with facts and figures seeing that you started this discussion , will remain conjecture.

The onus of backing up your assertions therefore lays with you.

[dangamvura]

unless you can back up with facts and figures

have you read this entire discussion? the truth seems to hurt

[Dinges]

have you read this entire discussion? the truth seems to hurt

Are you trying to be deliberately obtuse. Please quote me one link on this page where there are facts and figures backing up your assertions.

And please , do not go full butthurt on me , because I do not have an opinion on this matter and are simply pointing out here that you are making the case. Now own up on your facts and your references.