WWII: German officers 'knew of Holocaust'

[2RHPZ]

German officers 'knew of Holocaust'

MURDO MACLEOD

HIGH-ranking German officers knew much more about Adolf Hitler's plans to murder millions of Jews than previously thought, according to newly revealed transcripts of conversations between captured generals.

During the Second World War, British intelligence secretly bugged the cells occupied by some of the most senior German army, navy and air force commanders who had been captured by the Allies.

The transcripts have only recently been made available to researchers and show that:

• Senior Luftwaffe officers mused together at the end of 1943 that millions of Jews had already been killed.

• General Dietrich von Choltitz, the German commander who defied Hitler's orders by not allowing Paris to be destroyed, admitted that he had been involved in killing Jews;

• Field Marshal Erwin Rommel had been fully briefed about the 1944 attempt to kill the Nazi leader, and refused to betray the plotters.

The British bugging operation took place in the then country estate of Trent Park on the north-west outskirts of London, in a building now used by the University of Middlesex.

Senior German officers were lulled into a false sense of security by being allowed to live in relative luxury, even sometimes having their adjutants and batmen to attend to them.

However, all the time the British were bugging their cells in an effort to get the Germans to reveal vital military secrets about chains of commands, tactics and who made the decisions in the Nazi war machine.

Scotsman

[Vandervahn]

Errrmmm.. I heard about this YEARS ago...
Apart from that it doesnt change anything on the the important question: whether it was common knowledge to the PUBLIC.

[Crassus]

I have seen a tv-document where a German captain told that he complained to FM Manstein about mass killings of jews in Crimea. Manstein´s reply was "it is politics" or something like that. But after the WWII when you read Manstein´s memoirs, he is totally unaware jews existing at Crimea, or better said - they were evacuated by communist.
Erich von Manstein´s memoirs are good but a reader must remember, they are full of lies.

[Johnny_H02]

The only problem I have with that article is it says "German Officers"
It is obviously reffering to those in the higher ups of echelons.

Not the German Officer corps as a whole.

[Kitsune]

This all is not exactly new. The mentioned transcripts are all very vague (especially considering that the term "Jew" and "Bolshevik" were often used interchangable) back then. This does hardly prove that officers in the Wehrmacht knew anything about Auschwitz. And what is said about Rommel is not exactly news either.

But a sentence like
[quote]This is a blow against the sanitised Hollywood image of the German army as a clean army totally removed from the atrocities.[/quoze]
iss truly amazing. Not only that the involvement of Wehrmacht units in various astrocities is an old hat by now. But what "sanitized Hollywood image of the Wehrmacht" is meant here? The image that Hollywood shows of the Wehrmacht is usually that the Germans were all a bunch of mindless evil-doers, arrogant (in the worst sense of the word) and racist to the bone, lacking any positive human emotion. And not that the picture gets better over time, it gets WORSE.

Funnily it's old movies (often from the fifties) were is at least some respect is shown ("Tobruk" for example). Some are even outright fair (like "Sink the Bismarck" or "The Enemy Below").
Later movies came more and more to depict Germans of the WWII era in a bad light ("A Bridge to Far" otherwise a classy movie is no exception) or even as the worst goons imaginable (the Indiana Jones trilogy...these may not be meant seriously but have nonetheless done a lot to shape the image most of today Americans view "the Nazis").

The newest movies take this to a whole new level, Germans are now not only evil, they are also cowards -and ugly of course ("Saving Private Ryan") or even, and thats truly a novelty, technically inept on top of it all ("U-517").
At the same time American soldiers are inevitably shown as good-looking and very competent. Those who are not downright heroic, that is.

Serials are no exception (take the various "guest appearances" which "the Nazis" have sometimes in some of these Star Trek derivates: the typical scene seems to be that some evil Alien who is himself an evil-doer through and through is at some point voicing his utter contempt for these Nazis. There may be understanding for the bloodthirstiest Klingon or the most insidious Romulan - but not for the most evil and most despisable aliens in the universe.

Which movie it may be - a difference between "normal Germans soldiers" and "Nazis" is generally not shown. So one cannot complain that there would be a "sanitized Hollywood image" at all. Quite the opposite. It's so bad that one sometimes could start to believe in a conspiracy.
(But then...it's not that other war enemies of the USA are faring that much better. And it's also not exactly getting better. Just compare how the Japanese are depicted in the older "Tora! Tora! Tora!" and compare it with the new "Pearl Harbor". And the Vietnamese are generally shown as some Asian ant people lacking any individuality or similiarities to normal human beings even in those movies that are otherwise full of critic concerning the war in Nam. So perhaps it's just the Zeitgeist).

All in all: the Scotsman tries to correct something that does not need to be corrected at all. I think this can be seen as just the normal anti-German article of the day in the British press.

[gadzook]

Both "Tora! Tora! Tora!" and the Japanese scenes from "Pearl Harbor" were written and directed by Japanese. "Tora! Tora! Tora!" is actually two movies spliced together, one American and the other Japanese. If you see the Japanese as portraying themselves in less than a positive light then it's the Japanese director's fault...or(gasp) the actual horrible things the Japanese did in World War II.

I have seen a sum total of ONE German movie, "Das Boot" that is even 1/2 way watchable in regards to historical accuracy. The rest are garbage.

I enjoy seeing contemporary Germans here on this board trying to re-write the history of the Third Reich. It amuses me that they can turn a blind eye to overwhelming literature, film and photo archives of th average German citizen's involvement in the extermination, enslavement, eradication and destruction of millions of people often in their own hometowns and right under their noses?

As a former American Soldier stationed in Germany, all the Germans I knew all claimed to be "good Germans" and I could never find one owing up to being a Nazi. When asked, they all denied that they knew about the holocaust, slave labor camps etc. I would simply ask "Where did all the Jews go?" "Who worked in the factories when all the men left?". Simple questions that Germans knew the god damn answer to, but would not look me straight in the eyes and answer. That pissed me off. Frickin Nazis.

In the evenings in the Beer Halls the older men would get drunk and start singing Waffen SS songs. Catchy tunes. Most have lines in them like "we will crush our enemies skulls and burn their houses down, HOORAY!!". Nazis. All the men in there would be standing up on the tables singing those songs at the top of their lungs.

[sir-chimp]

Both "Tora! Tora! Tora!" and the Japanese scenes from "Pearl Harbor" were written and directed by Japanese. "Tora! Tora! Tora!" is actually two movies spliced together, one American and the other Japanese. If you see the Japanese as portraying themselves in less than a positive light then it's the Japanese director's fault...or(gasp) the actual horrible things the Japanese did in World War II.

I have seen a sum total of ONE German movie, "Das Boot" that is even 1/2 way watchable in regards to historical accuracy. The rest are garbage.

I enjoy seeing contemporary Germans here on this board trying to re-write the history of the Third Reich. It amuses me that they can turn a blind eye to overwhelming literature, film and photo archives of th average German citizen's involvement in the extermination, enslavement, eradication and destruction of millions of people often in their own hometowns and right under their noses?

As a former American Soldier stationed in Germany, all the Germans I knew all claimed to be "good Germans" and I could never find one owing up to being a Nazi. When asked, they all denied that they knew about the holocaust, slave labor camps etc. I would simply ask "Where did all the Jews go?" "Who worked in the factories when all the men left?". Simple questions that Germans knew the god damn answer to, but would not look me straight in the eyes and answer. That pissed me off. Frickin Nazis.

In the evenings in the Beer Halls the older men would get drunk and start singing Waffen SS songs. Catchy tunes. Most have lines in them like "we will crush our enemies skulls and burn their houses down, HOORAY!!". Nazis. All the men in there would be standing up on the tables singing those songs at the top of their lungs.

How long after WW2 did you witness this behavior?

[gadzook]

How long after WW2 did you witness this behavior?

20 years after the war. In the 1960's. Most of the men were in their 40's. This was in Bavaria too. Often Bavarians will say that since they were not Prussian that they have not party affiliation to the Nazis. This is false.

I, an American, can sing the Horst Wessel perfectly. Ever heard it? It's a great song. I heard it almost everytime I stayed late in a local tavern or beer hall. I even heard it sung in the Hofbrau House in Munich. Grease the wheels of those ex-soldiers with a couple gallons of beer in their bellies and all those old songs came out. Everyone sang them. Everyone. Some people marched in place or did laps around tables.

Most Germans at the time seemed to hate Hitler and the Third Reich only because they lost. Had the outcome of the war been different, so would the attitudes of all the ex-Nazis I came across.

[sir-chimp]

20 years after the war. In the 1960's. Most of the men were in their 40's. This was in Bavaria too. Often Bavarians will say that since they were not Prussian that they have not party affiliation to the Nazis. This is false.

I, an American, can sing the Horst Wessel perfectly. Ever heard it? It's a great song. I heard it almost everytime I stayed late in a local tavern or beer hall. I even heard it sung in the Hofbrau House in Munich. Grease the wheels of those ex-soldiers with a couple gallons of beer in their bellies and all those old songs came out. Everyone sang them. Everyone. Some people marched in place or did laps around tables.

Most Germans at the time seemed to hate Hitler and the Third Reich only because they lost. Had the outcome of the war been different, so would the attitudes of all the ex-Nazis I came across.

Thanks for answering my question.

How did it make you feel knowing part of your mission was to defend those people from an invasion?

[gadzook]

Thanks for answering my question.

How did it make you feel knowing part of your mission was to defend those people from an invasion?

At the time, we were still an Army of Occupation.

I have a whole bunch of stories about being stationed over there.

To a letter, most Germans would always talk about how they fought on the eastern front or in the balkans. I could never find a man who would admit to fighting on the western front. Not one. I liked Germans, but knew they were lying through their teeth when it came to their wartime service.

I was stationed on an old Luftwaffe airbase in Bad Aibling, Germany. We had excellent living quarters since they were built in the late 1930's by the Luftwaffe. Very nice quarters. We had a number of German civilians that worked on the base, mostly tradesmen, firefighters etc. They were all in that age group where they would have fought in the war somewhere. All claimed to be anti-communist fighters, nazi haters and innocent young bavarians conscripted into a war they did not want to fight in.

[sir-chimp]

At the time, we were still an Army of Occupation.

I have a whole bunch of stories about being stationed over there.

To a letter, most Germans would always talk about how they fought on the eastern front or in the balkans. I could never find a man who would admit to fighting on the western front. Not one. I liked Germans, but knew they were lying through their teeth when it came to their wartime service.

I was stationed on an old Luftwaffe airbase in Bad Aibling, Germany. We had excellent living quarters since they were built in the late 1930's by the Luftwaffe. Very nice quarters. We had a number of German civilians that worked on the base, mostly tradesmen, firefighters etc. They were all in that age group where they would have fought in the war somewhere. All claimed to be anti-communist fighters, nazi haters and innocent young bavarians conscripted into a war they did not want to fight in.

Thanks again for answering my question.

[Rifleman]

Short and sweet cause I gotta hit the sack.

When a teenager, I was able to meet a man who was a officer in the Wehrmacht. My friend's dad had been kind to his family after the fighting was over, food and such, and they stayed in contact.

He came to the U.S and came by to say hello and we (teenagers) were on him like bees on honey, and you know what question came up.

At first (he was on the eastern front) no, he had no clue. But they started hearing rumors. He was wounded, nothing real bad, and went home on leave, 30 days I think. One day a friend frankly told him the Jews were being wiped out. He was confused and pissed but did not know what to think or believe. When they started loosing the war and were being pushed back they knew because they started to see things but he really thought that hundreds or thousands of people were affected not 11 million total...Jews, Gypsies;et cetera.

My impression was this, they were just like us. Some were sad, some were pissed, some glad and some just really did not give a rat's butt about anything but getting out alive.

And if you told many of them what they wanted to hear they were on their merry way.

[hughdotoh]

I've a neighbor who's ex-WM, got captured by the Soviets late in the war in Hungary and went home to what became East Germany after being exposed to all that anit-German propaganda. He quit the country in the 50's and eventually became a consul for the Seychelles. He denies the Holocaust ever happened (as a POW hew was very much suspicious of all what the Sovs said, true or not), but depite this he has had non-Aryan wives and ex-wives and loves all his children as a father should, and isn't anything of a racist.

Maybe the soldiers were aware of the Holocaust, maybe they just didn't want it in their soldierly lives. But David Downing in his book "The Devil's Virtuosos" calls them the Pharisees of their time, who knew what was going on but turned a blind eye out of being soldiers. A shameful thing, but they have been judged.

[Zerodivider]

I have seen a sum total of ONE German movie, "Das Boot" that is even 1/2 way watchable in regards to historical accuracy. The rest are garbage.

So how many German movies are out there? I know of three... Das Boot, Stalingrad and The Downfall - all rather good. But I presume you prefer the likes of Saving Private Ryan and U-571 in terms of historical accuracy.

[Pvt.Anderson]

I have to agree o Kitsune's post there ...

20 years after the war. In the 1960's. Most of the men were in their 40's. This was in Bavaria too. Often Bavarians will say that since they were not Prussian that they have not party affiliation to the Nazis. This is false.

I, an American, can sing the Horst Wessel perfectly. Ever heard it? It's a great song. I heard it almost everytime I stayed late in a local tavern or beer hall. I even heard it sung in the Hofbrau House in Munich. Grease the wheels of those ex-soldiers with a couple gallons of beer in their bellies and all those old songs came out. Everyone sang them. Everyone. Some people marched in place or did laps around tables.

Most Germans at the time seemed to hate Hitler and the Third Reich only because they lost. Had the outcome of the war been different, so would the attitudes of all the ex-Nazis I came across.

OMG It's you again , will you ever stop spreading bs to the world ...
I am from Bavaria and can in no way agree with what your saying ... for example it's YOU that generalizes all German soldiers into the nazi corner , when you have met 10 or 20 former Wehrmacht soldiers , well , i met 20 Americans , they all were white , which makes me come to the conclusion that every US American is white ...

I have seen a sum total of ONE German movie, "Das Boot" that is even 1/2 way watchable in regards to historical accuracy. The rest are garbage.

Well at least we don't picture ourselves as heroic , patriotic uber soldiers slaughtering a whole American or Soviet division ( yes , yes just watch how they slaughter nearly an entire SS division with 5 people ) and Russians or Americans as bloodthirsty , bad looking stoopid commies ... I also wonder if you have even seen Stalingrad cause there even a shooting of civilians is shown , where do we see that in any US movie ( well AFAIK they didn't shoot civilians , but german POWs sometimes WERE shot .... )
->I can only ask you what movies you prefere then , cause easily over 80% of the US warmovies are pure crap ( for example Pearl Harbor , SPR , U-571 ; of course ALL 100% historically accurate )

Another thiing that came to my mind : Well , I think people don't dislike rulers that have won a war with them , cause if the war would have been won by the Germans ,they would have lived a good life and I think the whole holocaust would've been hidden for years and only the highest nazi officers get to know it ( Compare it to Stalin ... he has done SO many crucial things to the Russian people but he has won the war ... did anyone in the past / does anyone today yell about millions of dead people INCLUDING millions of jews ? He won the war that's the most important fact . )

And I can't understand why people always say " well the soldiers knew about the holocaust why didn't they do anything ? " , well can you tell me what they should've done ? Complain about the leadership or it's decisions and wander to the KZ yourself

To a letter, most Germans would always talk about how they fought on the eastern front or in the balkans. I could never find a man who would admit to fighting on the western front. Not one. I liked Germans, but knew they were lying through their teeth when it came to their wartime service.

Once again you've met maybe 50 - 100 people of maybe 15 million German soldiers in war and can't believe that those who met were on the eastern front ... now WHERE have most of the German soldiers been fighting ? Do you know that ? I will tell you what : On the Eastern Front !