Reply With Quotehmmmmm bring it back i wouldnt mind
Toss the 9mm, bring back the Colt .45!
WorldNetDaily
Col. David Hackworth
An Open Letter to Members of Congress
Dear Honorable Congresspersons:
One of your vital tasks is to ensure that our warriors who hang it all out on the killing field are equipped with the right stuff.
I don't see that happening anytime soon unless you get enough straight skinny to counteract lobbyist propaganda and other military-industrial-congressional-complex spin. So to help provide more fair and balanced input, I plan to occasionally pass along some of the most commonly recurring bitches that come my way weekly in e-mails, letters, phone calls, etc., from our warriors.
Let's begin with the M-9, the 9 mm Beretta pistol – which our combat troops say is the first item that should be tossed into the junk pile!
"They're constantly breaking," reports a warrior from Afghanistan. "To make matters worse, the 9 mm round is like firing paint balls. I had to pump four rounds into an al-Qaida who was coming at me before he dropped. We're dealing with fanatical crazies out here who won't quit until they die for Allah."
The Beretta can only be used bone-dry. Even then, it jams repeatedly if sand or grit gets into moving parts. Its ball round has proven to be worse than the .38 Colt pistol slug used by the U.S. Army in the Philippines until it was retired almost a century ago in favor of the .45 ACP M-1911 pistol – fielded to stop the Moros, who ironically were also Islamic fanatics.
Now Special Forces and Light Infantry soldiers in Afghanistan want to bring back the century-old .45, and some elite Marine units already have. A Special Forces sergeant says, "The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Beretta's 9 mm will, too – eventually – but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasn't the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds."
Rangers, Marines and most Special Ops troops are some of the other elite warriors in the U.S. military who carry personal firearms in combat while the brass look the other way. Quite a few choose to pack two purchased handguns. But the only Rangers who use the Beretta – even as backup – are those who can't afford to buy their own firearms, and they and the rest of these elite fighters unanimously agree that they "can't trust this fragile, unreliable sidearm."
Almost all the Rangers engaged in hand-to-hand combat during Op Anaconda packed their own personal sidearms. "When I ran out of ammo with my rifle, I pulled my pistol," a Ranger sergeant says. "It saved my life. I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldn't have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range."
In another fight, a Ranger fired several torso shots with a .45 pistol before his foe fell. "When we looked at the corpses, we found their mouths full of khat," he says. "It was like these guys were pumped up on PCP. With the Beretta, I'd have had to fire all 15 rounds and then thrown the pistol at this wild-eyed dude."
We went into Vietnam with a bad weapon, the M-16 rifle, which was responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers. It was a jammer, and if you have a jammed rifle in a firefight, you're dead. The M-16 was such a loser that some jungle-smart grunts refused to carry it and packed captured Soviet AK-47s instead.
What the M-16 was to Vietnam, the Beretta is to Afghanistan. And a soldier with no confidence in his weapon isn't the most motivated fighter in Death Valley.
"We're frustrated here that no one in Washington seems to have the slightest concern for our survival," writes a sergeant from Afghanistan. "It's a damn good thing that we have air superiority and so far haven't had many heavy fights."
Perhaps you congressional folks can figure out how to recycle some of the bucks we'll save from the Pentagon-zapped Crusader and get our combat troops a decent sidearm. This would surely relieve some of that frustration and, just by the way, keep our warriors alive.
I hope our military will order new 1911A1 .45 caliber pistols from Colt and just get rid of those 9mm pistols they are issueing now.
hmmmmm bring it back i wouldnt mind
General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.
You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.
Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating
.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8
.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6
*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5
.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54
*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4
.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7
*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7
**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7
**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5
.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6
.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9
.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3
.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1
.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7
.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2
* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.
* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.
Yeah, bring back the .45!
The MEU SOC 1911A2 the marines use is awesome.
Surely this is not just about 9mm Vs. .45ACP. The Beretta is not exactly the best 9mm on the block - the SiG series, Heckler & Koch, Walther & Glock to mention but a few are far superior IMO and would not have caused the problems the US Forces have experienced.
My experience with firearms deal with IPSC and IDPA competition, I'm not qualified to speak about battlefield experiences, but, I must say that each and everyone using beretta sooner or later replace it with something else..and I'm from Italy, mind you.
The main problems with M9 (98fs civilian version, 9mmx21 here in Italy) are the locking block under the barrel, it break EVERY TIME at aprox. 5000 rds, some times sooner, also the dovetailed front sight is fragile and ****e to break. The beretta is sensible to extreme cold and sand, and it's ergonomics is less than perfect (widht and grip angle). Magazine springs are sometimes defective also.
As for the 9mm versus 45 debate..I would prefer a 45 if the choice is restricted to ball rounds, the 9mm bring it's efficiency only in JHP mode.
I would not chose a 1911, however, there are far more modern firearms, and the 1911 would be very bad suited for the average trained soldier.
If given the choice, the SIG P220 would be superb, and more so the glock.
nope its a bring back the .45acp cause its traditional campaign again. Yet when the sugestion that they should adopt 6.8mm goes forward one of the arguments is the increase in recoil makes the training more difficult and .45acp doesn't have any more recoil than 9mm does it.
I wonder when the bring back .30-06 will start.
What about this pistol? (5.7x28mm)
Advantages
The Five seveN Pistol is the companion weapon to the P90 sub-machine gun. The Five seveN is an easily concealable double action pistol with a larger, 20-round magazine capacity. A maximum use has been made of composite materials in the frame and slide to result in an extremely light weight, 1.7 pound, design. The 5.7x28mm ammunition has the capability of penetrating body armor at extended ranges. This new ammunition features a lead-free projectile to eliminate environmental concerns. NATO STANAG classification for the ammunition is currently underway.
Personally I just say, "bring back 7.62 x 25 Tokarev", would make aOriginally Posted by MARK.TIGGER
wonderfull PDW/submachine gun round.
Something like this but in a modern compact "MP7"-package...
This need for something stronger than 9 mil seems to always come from the US and from no other army.
Any other army going the same direction at the moment ?
Sweden will get a new submachine gun to replace the old m/45 when NATO
just first decides which caliber to standardize on. I would guess on MP7.
Yes the Dutch Military is planning to replace the Glock 17 for the FN Five Seven. And our CT team all ready got the FN P90.
The NATO trials are I think finished and I think (could well be wrong) that it ended up in a status quo. No calibre was chosen over the other.
in France for example, the Bodyguards of the parachute squadron of the gendarmerie use the HK MP7 while the BG of the army's SF use the FN P90.
I don't believe in that .45 vs 9mm debate..Pistol rounds never were never will be instant stopers... 9mm or .45 don't do enough damage to stop man instantly(vital point shots doesn't count because they are called vital not without reason), even rifle rounds don't stop men in 90% probability range. Anger and adrenaline on both sides of the gun, those are the reasons for poor efectivnes of pistols in "mortal commbat".
The ultimate argument to stop the debate is logistics: injecting a non-NATO standard round in the supply chain is a no-go from the start.
Better a 9 mil ammo box than no box at all.
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