Yum Kippur War

[shelata]

Dr Yahia

Indeed, this is a documented fact .... which no one can deny

would you clarify this statement, Pls.

[Yahia Al Shaer]

......
...
Egypt tank losses were equal or less than IDF on the southern front only. Very few Israelies are aware that IDF lost in the War first 4 days more than 400 Tanks on the Canal front.

It is really piculiar, how facts are deliberatly overseen


It is a FACT, that Israel was so over surprised , after the first moments of launcjing the war ....

The houres that followed on the battle field, are documented and show how the commanders were in panic and near to being paralized.

Moshe Dayan and the Israelin intelligence, have miscalculated and underestimated the Egyptian step, due to an overestimating themselves afetr the 1967 sixday war ...

Not only me, but every military analyst , came to this conclusion...

Israel ´was near near to collaps ... and documents prove this fact .... and the calls to President Nixon etc ...

Dr Kissinger has documented this fact .... Mrs Meir, have called for HELP from USA ...

Consequentlly ... the massive airlift and airbrige "Operation Grass Nickel", started to help compensate the huge israeli looses ...

This is also a fact , and no one can deny

Otherwise ... just give us the documented answer and explanation
to the following question ...

Is israel did not lose a substancial portion of its equipments ... tanks and others ,

1 - WHY WAS THERE AN AIRLIFT HELP TO ISRAEL

2 - Why was there a postwar GRANAT commitee and facts finding missions on the Israeli side.

It does NOT help to repeat such allegations, while the documents that deny them , are already published here .....

So, there is no need to quote them again .... but , there is a reason to
check the previous sites of this thread ...

May be , it is really better, that I publish the numbers of those postings , to help a quick reference

This all is neither propaganda , nor trying to hide facts.....

All what is needed, is to read the books , the reports , the analysis with a neutral attitude and from an objective stand point



Dr. Yahia Al Shaer

[shelata]

Dr Yahia
For a moment I thought you were supporting GB_FXST opinion regarding the War outcome. That is why, I asked for clarification.
I am sure that a knowledgable man like yourself is full aware of YK war events & the clear remarks of EG army achievements through it.

[Yahia Al Shaer]

Dr Yahia
would you clarify this statement, Pls.

The Israeli presence on the WB was tactically, strategically and politically significant. The war would have lasted much longer if not for the Israeli breakthrough.

The Yom Kippur War was many things, but it was not a victory for Arab arms. Yes, some battles were won, namely crossing the canal. But, the war was lost. The fact of the matter is that the IDF was deeper in Egyptian and Syrian territory at the end of the war than at the beginning of the war. Such does not a victory make.

It really brings nowhere, when ignoring the facts and denying the documents published on the following sites ....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...68771&page=147

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...68771&page=148

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...68771&page=149

I am concerened, that, the trend of discussions now, seems that a restarting from the beginnin and repeating what had beenalready said
is evident ...

Such a development, is never helpful nor wishful and is going to occcupy our time for less objective results

There are other topics, that wait for publications.



Dr. Yahia Al Shaer

[BlackWarder]

You know the US airlift to Israel only started after the USSR started an airlift to Eygpt and Syria...

Warder

[Bright Star]

You know the US airlift to Israel only started after the USSR started an airlift to Eygpt and Syria...

Warder

The US supplies began on 7 Oct. through El Al airlines, before both Egypt and Syria recieved anything, Israel recieved more supplies during the war than what the arabs did.

[Bright Star]

Some pics for the Egyptian soldiers......







Enjoy..

[Bright Star]

Israeli soldiers and Egyptian prisoners under heavy artillery shelling (Abu Ghazala's 2nd army artillery).



Sharon said that his armoured division had 300 IDF soldiers killed and about 1000 wounded during this night.

[nu4idf]

The arab members on this thread seam to point to the transparency of a democratically elected government as their source to claim egyptian/syrian victory.

Yes Golda and her government resigned. This is due to their inability to predict this war and for the casualties. Western Countries like Israel value life so when you take lots of casualties especially with a small population you can't help but feel responsible.

Yes their were commissions formed and inquires into certain aspects of the war. I think any military that gets defeated in A battle should then look into that battle and see what it can learn.

Machinery from the US may have come. This material didn't get absorbed. till much later on.

You fail to see that you're initial "victory" in A battle was eventually a disastrous loss in a war.

So face the facts you lost.

[alexz]

Is someone challenging the fact the IDF was 101KM from Cairo at the end of the war?
what exactly is the arguing all about? No one claims Israel was winning the war in its early stages or even in the first week, but to challange the outcome is equivilaint to saying Germany won WWII, casue they had occupied most of Europe by 1942.

[megaidler]

The original plan was to use the strategic reserve to fill the gap , but Sadat forced them to be used in the development of attack , If it hadn't been for this silly involvement, the gap would have been filled with at least 400 tanks of the 21st and 4th armoured divisions
Note: Each Division was missing one batallion which were assigned to the front lines since 6 October.

Source: "War Battles on the Egyptian Front" By: Gamal Hammad

I do not trust this argument.
The responsibility for the Egyptian bridgeheads on the east bank was on the infantry divisions,
not the 4 and 21 armored divisions.
More particularly it was the responsibility of the 16th infantry division under the command of Abdu Reb El Naby Havez to seal the gap near Deversoir in the first place.
It had nothing to do with the decision to send the 4 and 21 armored divisions to the passes.
When the Egyptians discovered the Israeli penetration while it was still small,
Shazley suggested withdrawing armored forces from the east to the west, and sent them to Deversoir.
Dani Matt troops would be smashed under the chains of hundreds of Egyptian tanks.
Saadat feared that if Egyptian soldiers will see tanks withdrawing to the west they would be in panic,
thinking that the situation is serious.
That is what made the Egyptian army collapse in 1967.
Instead Ismail decided to try to seal the gap by armored forces in east but these repeated attempts have failed.

[megaidler]

The US supplies began on 7 Oct. through El Al airlines, before both Egypt and Syria recieved anything, Israel recieved more supplies during the war than what the arabs did.

El-Al transport was insufficient and had no significant influence on the battlefield.
Only 5000 tons of cargo was delivered via El-Al.
Egypt and Syria received much more hardware from the Soviets and other Arab nations than Israel received from the U.S.
Some Arab nations even sent their own forces to the fight.
While the U.S. supplied Israel with advanced equipment like the TOW, Maverick and jamming equipment,
the Israelis were poorly trained on how to use this new equipment.
As a result, the TOW didn't play a significant role in the battlefield of 1973.
And the jamming equipment was ineffective.
On the other hand, a few weeks before the war started, both Egypt and Syria received SA-6 mobile anti aircraft missiles that shot down many Israeli planes.
Both Egypt and Syria had T-62 tanks that were equipped with night vision measures and gun stabilizing measures.
The Israelis had neither of them.
During the year that preceded the war, the Soviets were delivering enormous quantities of materials to Egypt,
trying to keep Egypt as a trustful ally.
That is why Saadat said before the war: "they are drowning me in arms".

[megaidler]

Look for the 1973 war on the following site:
cgscsearch.leavenworth.army.mil
"The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: The Albatross of Decisive Victory"
by Dr. George Gawrych
This is a research made by the U.S department of defense,
and it is probably a reliable document.
There you can read facts that can't be found on El Ahram.
Please read the entire document.

[Hollis]

Dr Yahia
For a moment I thought you were supporting GB_FXST opinion regarding the War outcome. That is why, I asked for clarification.
I am sure that a knowledgable man like yourself is full aware of YK war events & the clear remarks of EG army achievements through it.

Maybe do some research. President Sadat, Henry Kissinger and the 3rd Army..........

Hint H. Kissinger on President Sadat behalf asked the Israelis for a favor.

Also keep in mind the Battle to Israel's North, Syria failed miserably. Which did not help the Egyptian Army in the South.


Egypt did not obtain victory, nor was it actually defeated. It was President Sadat statesmanship and relationship with Henry Kissinger that saved Egypt from defeat. One might add, if it wasn't for the internal conflicts in the Egyptian Army, they might have succeeded.


Another part. defeat and victory can happen because of many factors. A Army can defeat itself. The politicians can place the Army in a position that is can not win, Out side inference and support can effect the outcome. I think it helps to remember than many brave men on both sides did their best to succeed in their mission and died in doing so. It is not them who stumbled or failed, as in many cold war conflicts it was those who where no where near the battle field that failed.

[GB_FXST]

Dr Yahia
For a moment I thought you were supporting GB_FXST opinion regarding the War outcome. That is why, I asked for clarification.
I am sure that a knowledgable man like yourself is full aware of YK war events & the clear remarks of EG army achievements through it.

It really brings nowhere, when ignoring the facts and denying the documents published on the following sites ....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...68771&page=147

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...68771&page=148

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...68771&page=149

I am concerened, that, the trend of discussions now, seems that a restarting from the beginnin and repeating what had beenalready said
is evident ...

Such a development, is never helpful nor wishful and is going to occcupy our time for less objective results

There are other topics, that wait for publications.



Dr. Yahia Al Shaer

Gentleman,

The comments in the post below are open to refutation, in particular the claim that the Egyptian army was not defeated. The implication that the Egyptian army was victorious is simply not substantiated by the facts on the ground.

Israel was deeper in Egypt after the war than before the war. That is not a victory for Egypt.

Now, we can speculate whether or not Egypt would have mustered eventually sufficient forces to expel the Israeli forces. But ultimately such speculation is pointless. Those forces may not have been successful for myriad of equally speculative reasons. At any rate, Israel was on the West Bank and that presence had an impact on the disposition of the war.

Further, I hypothesize (or speculate) that if Egypt would not have agreed to a cease fire if it felt that it held the advantage. Egypt would have pressed on to the passes or even betond.

In other words, Egypt agreed to a cease fire because it was at a disadvantage. Whether that disadvantage was manifest by Israeli forces on the West Bank or the perception that Egypt was also at war with the US is ultimately immaterial. The reason being is that agreement to the ceasefire is again indicative of defeat, or at best stalemate. Neither of which can be classified as victories.

If this discussion has become overly partisan then maybe the answer is to just post pictures with neutral captions.

While occupying IDF posts on the Easter Canal bank & threatning the existing west bank IDF armoured divisions, the egyptian army can not be described as defeated. When IDF retreat without political conditions to 30 Kms east of the Canal on the 18th Jan 1974, this would not be express his victorious stand.
Hitorywise, You will fail to trace any leader that could maintain political Victory out of a military defeat.
The history lesson is that out of a Military conflict, the political gains are directly proportional to the military gains.

The Chineese farm was a 4 days battle starting from the 15th. I would say it actually lasted till the 22nd when IDF tried to overcome Missori but failed.

Egypt tank losses were equal or less than IDF on the southern front only. Very few Israelies are aware that IDF lost in the War first 4 days more than 400 Tanks on the Canal front.