Originally Posted by nu4idf
There are many dicrepancies within the normal life in every country, particularly , when they originate from different cultures .
You approach now, another additional issue.
It is a fact, that Israel, is a country of imigrants . This is not a disadvantage at all, but a fact.
I personally have witnessed as a young child , the creation of Israel in 1947 , the first war 1948 , the 1956 war ( which I participated in Port Said) , the 1967 sixday war, the war of attrition , the first Lebanon war , the 1973 October YK war and the second Lebanon war ..... No mention of all the fightings in and around Gaza.... the Munich Olympia ambus, the other events as well .
It is a blessing from God, to have witnesssed and have seen the impressive developments in the region , of course all the countries
including Israel ....
Most impressive of all, was to witness what had happened and is still hapening in Israel ...
In former times, if you would have talked to an Israeli, you would have been suspected , but to day, they have embasies and consulates and commercial and cultural relationships with some Arab countries and peace with Egypt and Jordanien .
The message, I want to transfer to you and every one els
It must be acknowledged from every one, that we all , will never be able to change a gone history..... but we can contributo to understand it better.
Therefore, takling disadvantages , and returning to them again anad again, will never help achieving a better understanding of each other
as humanbeings
Israel is never holly and has its fatal mistakes, as well as other Arab countries .
We can critisize ... but we can as well point out to other advantages.
Democracy in Israel, is being experienced - though ther are lots of criticisms - to other facts with implementing it there ... and this is true
The wars, have proven many charactaristics on both sides, but this must not divert our attention from the ATTROCITIES commited during the wars by some units and persons and commanders of the Isreali army ... including Sharon himself....
This includes all of these wars .....whether 1956 , 1967 , Lebanon "Sabra" , Lebanon "1980s" , Gaza, or Yom Kippur
These are not not allegations, but are facts and are documented by the Israelis themselves ....
What I am trying here, is to give peace a chance but not to flame emotions
Therfore , let us hope that we agree on that objective ..... and reach it
Let us look at this wise proverb ....
You can always start a war but you can never know in advance ... how it ends
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
Once again, we turn back to a start.....
Read the documents .... and how Golda Meir and the Israeli military had called for help ...
This is documented here ...
Remeber the speed and urgency of the Airlift to Israel ....
It will help, when you would read more about "Operation Nickle Grass", not only in books, but also make a google search
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
And due to the fact, that the capacity of El Al freighters , and the militry transport aircraft were not enough to deal with the amount of military aid to rescue Israel , another urgent logistic plan was implemented ....
This was the "Operation Nickle Grass"....
There are many posts published here about that rescue operation.....
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
Is someone challanging the fact, that Israel called for urgent help from USA, after the Egypt had overrun the Bar Lev Line and advanced in Sinai in a surprising speed ... resulting in loosing Israel a sustantial portion of its equipment in Sinai during the first four days of war .....
Israel, thought of deploying the "OTHER ALTERNATIVE", developed in Dimona ....
If USA did not rush to help ... Israel would collaps "quoted in many westerners and Israeli documents , books and reports, that Mrs Gola Meir herself had said it... " ?????
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
Apologies, for not responding yet, due to other sudden commitments.
I did not ignore them and shall return to you and comment
Thanks for patience and understanding
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
Well,
First of all , lets define what is victory ?
The Egyptian Armed Forces has passed through reconstruction after the 1967 war, and since then the first priority was the defensive plan.
Then afterwards it was the stage of the war of the attrition, in which Egypt has tested its offensive capabilities.
Afterwards, Specially after the dismissal of Marshal Sadek , EAF has become more realistic, and Commanders like Ahmed Ismail, El-shazli, Al-Gamasi and also Sadat were convinced that the EAF must be assigned a mission that is proportional to its capabilities as the USSR was never to give anymore advanced weapons, and USSR controlled strictly the amount and the delivery dates.
All books including the most detailed in this point the Shazli's book stated that:
There was a plan called "Operation 41" then was renamed to "Granit 2" in which the liberation of whole sinai and gaza were planned.
USSR Experts participated in this plan , and demand lists were made in a very detailed manner.
President Sadat went to moscow on Oct. 1971 to convince the USSR with supplying Egypt with its needs to accomplish the plan "Granit 2", He came back without reaching the full acceptance with them, and all what they accepted was 100 MiG-21's and very few SAM-6.
Afterwards, the USSR didn't commit to the delivery dates, and the relations between Egypt and USSR deteriorated as of many reasons, after all, no enough weapons or advanced technology reached EAF.
Saad El-Shazli evaluation to Granit-2 against the available weapons was:
- IAF is far more advanced.
- EAF Reconn capabilities are not good to cover whole Sinai.
- Very few mobile SAM-6 unites to control the whole skies of Sinai.
- Lack of the required large number of tracked veichles that can carry troops for long distances into deep Sinai. Most of the Infantary carriers were wheeled not tracked.
As a result of that, another reduced version of the Plan has been made on parallel, It was called "Tall Menarets" , that was renamed in Sep. 1973 to "Badr" , Its points are:
- 5 Infantry divisions to cross Suez Canal , each renforced with additional Armoured Brigade , and additional Anti-Tank weapons.
- Destroy Bar-Lev line and engage the enemy.
- Each division must establish a bridge head of 8km depth and 16km width. in 24 hours
- Each Army should merge its divisions on one bridgehead. in 48 hours
- The two armies should then merge into one unified bridgehead , parallel to the total length of Suez Canal and with 10 to 15 Km depth.
- After that, all forces must take very stronghold defensive positions, and resists any counter attacks.
- Airforces and Navy units must be used to paralize enemy HQ's and defenses and reserves.
After long discussions, the Tall Menarets/Badr plan was approved, and it was the core for all training and armement. and in Sept 1973, Ahmed Ismail asked El-shazli to plan for a second stage if the tactical situation allows to develop attack to the east, and the key point was based on if the Egyptian Air Forces could gain air superiority , but this was hypothetical only.
You can read all the details in El-shazli book "The crossing of the Suez"
Here is the strategic instruction letter sent from the Sadat to Ahmed Ismail:
Translations:
Strategic Instruction from President and EAF Supreme Commander
To Ahmed Ismail - Minister of War and EAF General Commander
1- Based upon Political Instruction sent by me to you on First of Oct., and upon the political and strategic situation:
I have decided to assign the Egyptian Armed Forces the following strategic missions:
A- Removal of the military freeze state by breaking the cease fire as of 6th of October 1973.
B- Infliction of as much casualties as possible on the enemy.
C- Work on liberation of our occupied land on stages and upon devlopment of the situation on the ground and referred to the actual capabilities of the Egyptian Armed Forces.
2- The above missions are to be accomplished with or without the cooperation with Syria.
Anwar El-Sadat
From my point of view, the EAF succeeded in accomplishing what is was assigned for , and the Sadat repeadtly said that all what I need is 10 cm on the east , then i will do the job.
Also, Israel was forced to sit on the table, and withdraw from Sinai, and lose large casualties, and give up econimic plans for sinai, and give up petroleum field in Suez Bay,.....etc.
After all, Sinai was restored by a peace process that would have never been triggered except by whay EAF accomplished in the war.
Thanks
MegaidlerGawrych book is less biased than the poor Rabinovich book or "Arabs at War" book or Adans book. Yet, Gawrych clearly describe the War military outcome as a Stalement. Here is his conclusion:-"The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: The Albatross of Decisive Victory"
by Dr. George Gawrych
This is a research made by the U.S department of defense,
and it is probably a reliable document
Further to the above, here is the highly reputated military expirit, Trevor Dupuy, well known conclusion regarding the 1973 War outcome:-
Thus, if war is the employment of military force in support of political objectives, there can be no doubt that in strategic and political terms the Arab States - and particularly Egypt - won the war, even though the military outcome was a stalemate permitting both sides to claim military victory.
Last edited by shelata; 11-10-2009 at 09:17 AM.
I think that we need to distinguish between political victory and military victory.
The Yom Kippur war was not a military victory for Egypt because its position in the theatre of operations was after worse the war than before the war: 1) The Third Army’s position was perilous, 2) and the IDF was on the West Bank. At that point Egypt’s options were severely limited. Of course, the Israel presence on the West Bank was a short term move calculated in light of the war. Israel had neither the intent nor the capability to bring total defeat onto Egypt. But, it could and did put Egypt at a tactical disadvantage. A disadvantage that forced the ceasefire.
As we know, the ceasefire occurred with the EAF still entrenched on the East Bank.
For that reason, I grant you that the Yom Kippur war was a political victory for Egypt made possible by two accomplishments of the EAF: 1) the successful crossing of the canal, and 2) the resiliency of the Third Army. Sadat leveraged these facts into political concessions from Israel and the US. Sadat was an adroit politician, but also benefited from Cold War geo-strategic considerations. The US recognized an opportunity to pull Egypt into its sphere of influence.
I think that one of the key lessons of the Yom Kippur war for Egypt was the limitations of military force. The immense difficulties of the war demonstrated that a path other than war was necessary to reclaim the Sinai.
Of course, there was a lesson for Israel as well. If the EAF had not performed as well they did, and if the initial crossing attempt was repulsed, then Israel may not have open to a negotiated withdrawal from Sinai in the late 1970’s.
I think the hard part is to look outside of the box. As Dr. Yahia Al Shaer stated, "To give Peace a chance."
Peace was won for both sides. If consider that to be victory, both sides was victorious. Generally defeat is viewed like the complete crushing of a enemy, like that of Nazi Germany.
What happened his was to actually find peace out of war, not more wars out of victory. It is commonly believed that the allies being victorious in WWI, was a major causation of WWII. The defeat in 1967, was part of the reason for the October/YK war. A victorious Egypt would not do, nor a victorious Israel would not do. Either way we would not have peace, only the continuation of war.
President Sadat was a major and key part in making peace. It seems we are loosing sight of the true victory because of the fog of war. Real victory is not in crushing one's enemy by finding a enduring peace, cessation of hostilities, which did happen. The promoters of peace was Egypt, Israel and the US. Notice the USSR is not mentioned. The looser in this conflict was the USSR in that they lost part of the sphere of influence in the ME. The winners were Egypt, Israel and the US. President Sadat is attributed with being a very key person in making peace happen. It is said, he did more than anyone else to do so.
Maybe we can get beyond "we won, you lost mentality." It only breeds more war.
Again, it seems that you are trying to prove something but your not even sure what?
There is a Consensus that Israel was surprised and suffered a defeat in the early stage of the war, so did the US at Pearl Harbour. Are you sayingthat the outcome would have differ without the US would airlift aid to Israel? Then the Question is would Egypt ever advanced north the Sinai into Israel without the SAM umberlla, and would be turned into dust by the IAI?
There are alot of IFs but only one historical fact and that in the end, after heavy casualties, Israel defeated Egypt and Syria and thats it.
AlexzSo in your opinion, we should ignore Trevor dupuy, Oballance, Gawrych & many other Un-biased historian works about the YK war & take your words as the only valid truth!There are alot of IFs but only one historical fact and that in the end, after heavy casualties, Israel defeated Egypt and Syria and thats it.
Aren`t you over-estimating your credability!!
For the love of god, putting aside all those historians and writers..
Can someone please tell me.. how Egypt is the 'winner', and what makes it the 'winner'?
I don't care if Israel got billion tanks or whatever, or that the Egyptian leadership sold itself to the devil... in the END GAME, who came out with the upper hand?
You have your stand point and points of views and I have mine .
I have proven my points of views through piblishing the US classefied docs, you not
So why bother ...
Let it be so ....
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
What in the Arab narrative places the blame for Sabra or Shatila on Israel and Sharon?
And I know you will cite Israeli documents and all, but since you belong to the Arab narrative of history I would like to know how those incidents differed from the half dozen other camp massacres perpetrated by Arabs onto other Arabs?
Once again HOLLiS, our lines meet but never crossed
It is a pity, clinching to one redicules point of view ... namely only Israel had won .... and only Egypt andl Arabs have lost.
This allegation, never conforms with reality ... neither historical realities, documents, press releases, battlefield reports , photos, images, videos , films and of course ... lives lost on and of both sides ...
It is sad, as well , to divert the discussions backwards, to repeat again and again , things that were posted before and have created tension ...
I must, point to one of my rekarks about what hold me back, from getting
active in the current discussions , namely an old illusion ... the only victorians were isreal ... the only conquered were Egyptians
I think, that objectivity is the most recommende style for further comming
in discussion in this thread.
HollIS,
In any case , it is better for those who clinch to allegations, to look at those photos, because , my next topic is about the ATTROCITIES during the Israeli-Arab Ward ... which will include lots og geeniuine docs.
It is evident, that the Egyptian soldiers were fully dressed, and it is evident, that they had to take of their shoes, even, when they wele
crambeled together in a ditsh for excution ... SHOT BY ISRAELI MILITARY
and history in Europe and Germany have documented a lot of such ditches
The following Israeli film (translated to Arabic) ought to be viewed,
http://www.esnips.com//widgethtml/0/flv_video/flv_player/49e4b5a0-4a8c-4c09-bd10-34503731b792
The former Israeli defense minister , General Ben Alizar , is accused of the killing of 250 soldiers, in cold blood during the 1967 war
But, despite all the following documentary photos, docs, protocols, etc etc, we Egyptians have shown , that we can write a new page in history, without hard feelings .
We have the courage to give peace a chance
despite every attrocity
many photos, even this prove our attitude
though he admitted the attrocities
Even Sharon and 1956 attrocities and the
evidence taken from the court protocol
do show a fact, that had been repeated over and over again
Operation Musketeer
by
Yahia Al Shaer
Atrocities, Mass Murders and War Crimes
during the 1956 Anglo-French-Israeli Tripartite
invasion and Sinai War
This is a sad chapter in my book, because talking about the other Side of the Coin will neither include the hereoising any person on either sides of the War.
It simply demands FACTS. Redocumenting an account of horrible crimes committed duringthe war days (off the battle fields) since 29th October 1956, demanddoubtless facts and prerequisites neutrality.
As many other wars, the Anglo-French-Israeli war was no exception. It did have its share of disgrace and shame.
On all fronts and in all Wars, Massmurders are never the issue of how many murders were committed to be counted asa war crime ?
or how many innocent civilians were killed to be measuredas Massmurder ?.
It is the moral obligation, to ask the question, how did we allow it to come so far
?.
Killing POWs is against the UN Charta, signed by all the states on this Earth. Killing innocent civilians by soldiers is disgraceful and nonhonorable. It is an act of terror which degrades its doers and places them to side with criminals. It does not comply to the military honore.
The courage to admit that it has happened, requires a great deal of civil courage. Many have denied that they took place - when they had the chance to do it.-, others have just done it, and simply committed the crime, thought that it will never come up,it will sink down in the forgotten minutes of history. But justice is holy, and the truth will always pop up and pervail.
May God forgive
and
May their souls rest in peace
We have heard in Port Said about some of the atrocities committed during this war. We have been talking in Egypt and propagating, that innocent civilians and soldiers have been killed either in cold blood, or at point blank, or may be just for the sake of killing, cold blood killing of non-combatant civilians or military persons.
We have either propagated the stories or waited for evidences, because such crimes were categorically denied from the Tripartite Alliances , that they never happened or were never committed from their soldiers. They argumented, that such war crimes never happened after 1945. The history proved that they are wrong and that we - who never thought it could be true -- are mistaken.
To document these crimes for history, I have chosen the following (known and published) war crimes, genocide and atrocities committed by all three Alliances of 1956 War against Egypt. Starting with Port Said and ending with Sinai referring to the sources of these information.
War Mass murders during 1956
Anglo-French invasion
and the Israeli attack on Sinai
First I refer to General, Ariel Sharon
Source is http://www.canpalnet-ottawa.org/Drawing%20the%20Line.html
Drawing the line at Sharon
by Dave Himmelstein
Drawing the line at Sharon
by Dave Himmelstein
........
................
And they feel that not to speak out would disqualify them from denouncing war crimes and crimes against humanity in other places and times.
Dave Himmelstein is a writer and teacher in Monteal.
Mass Murders
In 1956 Sinai WarIt began on Monday, October 29, 1956, at exactly 16:59. Paratroopers' Battalion 890 under the command of Raphael (Raful) Eitan was parachuted on the eastern side of the Mitla pass, deep in enemy territory. This was the first moment of the war, to be known later as the Suez War.
Excerpt from Oren's Research Report
By Ronal Fisher
There were 395 fighters, including the commander, Raful, who participated in the jump. While they were still hovering between heaven and earth, the soldiers identified two large tents on the eastern side of the Mitla pass. They did not open fire from the air nor were they able, at that stage, to determine exactly who was there. Later it became clear. They were civilians, Egyptian public works employees, who happened to be at the place where the Israeli army commanders decided to parachute their force. They were captured and taken prisoners.
Two days later, after the awaited link-up was made with Division 202, Sharon assumed command in Mitla and Raful's battalion was ordered to move on to Ras Sudar. The Egyptian workers who had been captured on the first day of the parachuting were not loaded on the trucks and did not join the battalion which began to move to the south in a convoy, nor were they transferred to Sharon's soldiers. In fact, none of the soldiers of Battalion 890 can testify to having seen them alive after the force packed up and left.
Lieutenant Colonel (reserves) Danny Wolf (known as Rahav), recipient of the Award of Valor(1) in the Six Day War, today admits that the Egyptian civil engineering workers were slaughtered on the second day of the campaign while the battalion was still isolated Wolf, who later became the commander of the Shaked Elite Unit, was at the time a soldier in the company commanders' course in Battalion 890. If it had been up to him, he now says, the Egyptians would remained alive. On the other hand, there were the circumstances of that time. Wolf, like all who were there, does not like to talk about that part of the campaign, and has been careful to remain silent all these years. Now he is talking.
Wolf: "There were 20 or 25 men. I do not remember exactly how many. All were dressed in white jellabas. Road workers, poor guys. It is an extremely hard work in the middle of the desert. ...........
...........
............
..........
, without a battle."(6)
(Maariv, August 8, 1995)
Notes:
- The highest award in the Israeli army.
- In my view this is untrue. According to my sources, the French army told the Israeli army that all Egyptian units had already received an order to retreat to Egypt as quickly as they could.
- A term of praise.
- They were broken by the stupid order to retreat blindly.
- Regarded as a legendary hero.
- To the best of my information, at least 2,000 were murdered.
Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
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