Thread: Yum Kippur War

  1. #2311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yahia Al Shaer View Post
    Once again HOLLiS, our lines meet but never crossed

    It is a pity, clinching to one redicules point of view ... namely only Israel had won .... and only Egypt andl Arabs have lost.

    This allegation, never conforms with reality ... neither historical realities, documents, press releases, battlefield reports , photos, images, videos , films and of course ... lives lost on and of both sides ...

    It is sad, as well , to divert the discussions backwards, to repeat again and again , things that were posted before and have created tension ...

    I must, point to one of my rekarks about what hold me back, from getting
    active in the current discussions , namely an old illusion ... the only victorians were isreal ... the only conquered were Egyptians


    I think, that objectivity is the most recommende style for further comming
    in discussion in this thread.

    HollIS,

    In any case , it is better for those who clinch to allegations, to look at those photos, because , my next topic is about the ATTROCITIES during the Israeli-Arab Ward ... which will include lots og geeniuine docs.


    It is evident, that the Egyptian soldiers were fully dressed, and it is evident, that they had to take of their shoes, even, when they wele
    crambeled together in a ditsh for excution ... SHOT BY ISRAELI MILITARY

    and history in Europe and Germany have documented a lot of such ditches


    The following Israeli film (translated to Arabic) ought to be viewed,

    http://www.esnips.com//widgethtml/0/flv_video/flv_player/49e4b5a0-4a8c-4c09-bd10-34503731b792

    The former Israeli defense minister , General Ben Alizar , is accused of the killing of 250 soldiers, in cold blood during the 1967 war


    But, despite all the following documentary photos, docs, protocols, etc etc, we Egyptians have shown , that we can write a new page in history, without hard feelings .












    We have the courage to give peace a chance
    despite every attrocity
    many photos, even this prove our attitude
    though he admitted the attrocities

    Even Sharon and 1956 attrocities and the
    evidence taken from the court protocol


    do show a fact, that had been repeated over and over again
































    Dr. Yahia Al Shaer
    What is your objective here?

    You say that you strive for objective analysis. Is that your real intent or just a facade? At first, I took you at word of objectivity and dispassion analysis at face value. Now, frankly, I question your motives.

    The following is provocative to say the least.


    It is evident, that the Egyptian soldiers were fully dressed, and it is evident, that they had to take of their shoes, even, when they wele
    crambeled together in a ditsh for excution ... SHOT BY ISRAELI MILITARY

    and history in Europe and Germany have documented a lot of such ditches
    The photo of soldiers in the ditch is not prima facia evidence of any massacre of any sort. I could go on but well refrain for the moment.

    If you wish to post about alleged Israeli war crimes that may or may not have happened during the Yom Kippur wars and other wars, then you should realize that, I (and I suspect others) will not only refute your posts as appropriate, but will also start to post about Arab atrocities committed against Jews and Israelis before, during and after 1973.

    I suspect you may not like what is brought forth as a counter point.

    I also predict that this thread will be locked soon afterwards.

    So, I have a suggestion: Don’t go down this road. Instead, we can probably agree that war is a terrible thing and terrible things happen during war.

  2. #2312
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    Megapost..

    Quote Originally Posted by nu4idf View Post
    The arab members on this thread seam to point to the transparency of a democratically elected government as their source to claim egyptian/syrian victory.
    Israel wasn't a democratic country too, Sharon said that IDF enforced the government to attack Egypt in '67, and was about to commit a military coup. (democracy?), IDF was completely involved in the political life in Israel.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ith-Egypt.html

    Western Countries like Israel value life so when you take lots of casualties especially with a small population you can't help but feel responsible.
    According to your official statistics , Israel had more casualty rate in '67 than '73 and lost much more tanks and fighters per day, so why didn't your generals resigned in '67?
    Either your official numbers, or the reason you mentioned is wrong. Or maybe both?
    Israel suffered huge casualties during the war of attrition too.

    Yes Golda and her government resigned. This is due to their inability to predict this war
    So US commanders should have resigned after WWII because of Pearl harbor.

    Anyway she resigned because the Israeli people refused this reason and enforced her to resignation.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexz View Post
    Is someone challenging the fact the IDF was 101KM from Cairo
    Well, Germany was only few kilometers from Paris in the end of WWI, so Germany won the war?
    Egypt was only 10 miles from Tel Aviv in 1948, so Egypt won the war?

    at the end of the war?
    The fighting ended on 18 Jan 1974 (Brigadier Ibrahim Abdel Tawwab killed on 14 Jan), IDF retreated 35 KMs east of the Canal in the end, to avoid its destruction on the west bank (Operation Shamell).

    challanging the outcome is equivilaint to saying Germany won WWII, casue they had occupied most of Europe by 1942.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaidler View Post
    El-Al transport was insufficient and had no significant influence on the battlefield.

    Dunstan, page 56..

    Only 5000 tons of cargo was delivered via El-Al.
    Egypt and Syra recieved 15,000 tons through the USSR airlift, less than half for Egypt, so 5,500 tons is not a small number, because Egypt recieved nearly the same amount.

    While the U.S. supplied Israel with advanced equipment like the TOW, Maverick and jamming equipment,
    the Israelis were poorly trained on how to use this new equipment.
    As a result, the TOW didn't play a significant role in the battlefield of 1973.
    Referring to Egypt's attack in the 14th..

    O'Ballance, page 162..

    WOW, 4 hours..
    Here comes the role of the foreign volunteers, IMO..

    In adition, AW&ST wrote that US stocks of TOWs were depleted by 90% during the war.
    And the jamming equipment was ineffective.
    "An ounce of ECM is worth a pound of additional aircraft."
    -Major General Hod

    O'Ballance, page 277..

    Both Egypt and Syria had T-62 tanks that were equipped with night vision measures and gun stabilizing measures.
    Egypt had only 200 T-62s out of total 1700 tanks, the rest were T-55 and T-34..


    The Israelis had neither of them.
    Israel had M60, better than either..

    That is why Saadat said before the war: "they are drowning me in arms".
    He said it in '72 after he kicked them out of Egypt, they made a big arms deal with him (which they rejected before), to regain their influence in Egypt, so El Sadat said "And now they are drowning me in arms".

    Quote Originally Posted by GB_FXST View Post
    I think that we need to distinguish between political victory and military victory.
    You should also notice that Israel rejected all El Sadat's peace initiatives before the war, you can check the US National Archive yourself. After the war, Israel accepted what it refused before the war.
    This was only achieved when IDF was militarily defeated......

    Quote Originally Posted by alexz View Post
    There is a Consensus that Israel was surprised
    No consensus, Zeira denied it, and some Israeli books now doubt it.

    Are you sayingthat the outcome would have differ without the US would airlift aid to Israel?
    Sure..


    Dunstan, Page 67..
    Then the Question is would Egypt ever advanced north the Sinai into Israel without the SAM umberlla, and would be turned into dust by the IAI?
    By this time, the IDF was nearly destroyed in Sinai, Israel lost more than 500 tanks in 3 days, more than one third of its airforce was destroyed, it's ammunition were nearly depleted, and its generals were desperate, Dayan said it's the end of the 3rd temple, and even deployed its nukes, and was about to use them..
    ----------------------
    "Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that “this is the end of the third temple,” referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. “Temple” was also the code word for nuclear weapons. Prime Minister Golda Meir and her “kitchen cabinet” made the decision on the night of 8 October. The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. The number and in fact the entire story was later leaked by the Israelis as a great psychological warfare tool. Although most probably plutonium devices, one source reports they were enriched uranium bombs. The Jericho missiles at Hirbat Zachariah and the nuclear strike F-4s at Tel Nof were armed and prepared for action against Syrian and Egyptian targets. They also targeted Damascus with nuclear capable long-range artillery although it is not certain they had nuclear artillery shells."

    The third Temple's holy of holies, Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army.
    Last edited by Bright Star; 11-10-2009 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Star View Post
    Megapost..


    Israel wasn't a democratic country too, Sharon said that IDF enforced the government to attack Egypt in '67, and was about to commit a military coup. (democracy?), IDF was completely involved in the political life in Israel.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ith-Egypt.html

    ... snip ...
    Your claim is disingenuous at best because 1) the coup did not happen, and 2) the idea of coup is taken out of context.


    Ariel Sharon considered a military coup to force a war against Egypt in 1967, the Israeli prime minister confessed in a government publication released yesterday.
    The revelation was contained in Ma'arachot, published by the defence ministry, and Mr Sharon's admission may lead to a re-examination of the build up to the 1967 war, which ended in the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
    The study shows that the general staff, which included the then Maj Gen Sharon and Yitzhak Rabin, then chief of staff and later prime minister, was convinced that the country was in danger because the government was prevaricating over the launch of war. This caused Mr Sharon to consider locking up the cabinet.

    Mr Sharon admitted that he suggested to Mr Rabin that they could hold the cabinet in a room until "the chief of staff goes to Israel Radio and makes an announcement".

    According to Mr Sharon's account: "We often asked whether in the State of Israel there could arise a situation in which the army takes control.

    "And I always said it was impossible, that this couldn't happen in the State of Israel.

    "And then, after the meeting [with Levi Eshkol, the prime minister] on May 28, I said to the chief of staff and others who were present, that there had arisen a situation in which this could happen, and that it would also be well accepted - that is to say, to seize control not in the framework of wanting to govern, but in the framework of making a decision, the fundamental decision, and that [the] army can make it without the government.
    (emphasis added)

    That it did not happen, that Sharon spoke of only a crisis requiring resolution, speaks to the strength and ethos of the democratic principle in Israel.

    The article conveniently ignores the fact of Egyptian casus belli, namely the closing of Straits of Tiran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Star View Post

    ... snip ...

    You should also notice that Israel rejected all El Sadat's peace initiatives before the war, you can check the US National Archive yourself. After the war, Israel accepted what it refused before the war.

    This was only achieved when IDF was militarily defeated......

    ... snip ...

    What Sadat offered to Israel prior to 1973 and what was agreed upon at Camp David are two different things.

    Let’s not forget the three No’s of Khartoum.

    At any rate, no, the IDF was not defeated. If it was, Egypt would have gained control of the Sinai 1973 and not 1981.

  4. #2314
    Member Yahia Al Shaer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GB_FXST View Post
    .....
    ....
    ...
    So, I have a suggestion: Don’t go down this road. Instead, we can probably agree that war is a terrible thing and terrible things happen during war.
    As you notice, the intentions are never to creat tension , but i would like to pinpoint the following undeniable facts

    1 - Your ( I guess that you are of Jewish belief) and my religions are so neear to each other, that there are MORE COMMON basis between us than discrepancies

    2 - Your language and our language Hebrew and Arabbic share many expressions ... now , considering , that Hebrew is far more older than Arabic, I dare to say, Hebrew is the mother of Arabic langauge (this is my very personal believe, even when others refuse the thought of it)

    3 - You write from right to lefta ... and we are not different


    WE have lived together ... in HARMONY ... thaousands of years, though,
    Moses left Egypt ... fleding from the Paharao

    If I start to pin down , things , you will notice more common than contradictions ...

    One thing charactarizes us all in the region ... temprament ..

    Now to the FAIR BASICS ....

    There are lots of unpleasant things , which had happened during the past
    61 years ....

    Some of you, do refer to 1967 and publish the photos, but some of you are reluctant to see other counterin facts ..

    WE ... have a base in both our religions ..

    Eye for Eye , teeth for teeth

    I just wanted to show you, that things are NOT as rosy as they seem .

    Now to your threat ..

    Beleive me ...

    I do write in tens of foruzms and have my own domains , where I publish what I want ... and this is open for every one ... and my age, allows me
    to be a witness of history ... namely I am born on 18th December 1937


    This allows me , to say

    I AM FAIR IN VIEWING BOTH SIDES ... this meand POINTING THE MISTAKES TO BOTH SIDES

    When you put an ultimatum , because you see, what you did not expect ...

    Beleive me , neither you nor I are losers ... the thread will go on and the
    discussions will carry on and you will read what you would not like as well as what you like ....

    This is life ...

    To accept others opinion .... and points of view, even if you do not agree with them ...


    As HOLLIS mentioned and I fully agree with him ....

    Let us give PEACE a chance ... based upon frankness and understanding ... but never on depressing and hiding facts

    And as you mentioned and I agree with the sentence

    war is a terrible thing and terrible things happen during war

    I add to that

    WE can never change a GONE HISTORY but we ALL can contribute and help to understand it better


    SHALOM .... PEACE ..... SALAM ســلام



    Dr. Yahia Al Shaer


    PS
    Forgot adding an invitation to GB_FXST, to visit my domains or make a google search and visit any site he wishes , of my sites ....

    Then he will definately notice, that his original remark , about objectivity in dealing with the Arab-Israeli Wars , is uncorrect .

    BBut history has no mercy for mistakes done by whoever it is
    Last edited by Yahia Al Shaer; 11-10-2009 at 03:57 PM. Reason: adding an invitation to GB_FXST

  5. #2315
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    Oh.. reading all of the nonsense written in here by some of the Egyptian members is giving me an headache.
    How can a logical mind think that Egypt got out with the upper hand is beyond me..

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    This thread is getting more and more twisted and mystical

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyB View Post
    Oh.. reading all of the nonsense written in here by some of the Egyptian members is giving me an headache.
    How can a logical mind think that Egypt got out with the upper hand is beyond me..
    Well, on the other hand, Instead of describing our contributions as nonesense, give us one reason why Israel accepted what it refused for whole six years? wasn't it because of what Egyptian Armed Forces accomplished?

    Could you describe why Israel didn't withdraw from Golan? wasn't it because IDF managed to stroghold and push back the Syrians?

    Gentlemen,

    The problem about this dilemma is both sides have been charged with fake publicities for a long time, and recently the facts are coming to the surface.

    I as an Egyptian didn't know that the plan was not to liberate whole Sinai since short time ago.

    You also lived a long time thinking that IDF is invincible.

    The truth is , War is a foundation to a bigger strategic tower, in which Military , Diplomatic, Political , Social ,...etc efforts collaberate.

    After all books and maps and documents ... etc became accessible , We realized that the planning of the war was proportional to what could be accoplished on the ground.

    And fatal political mistakes and involevement in military command induced bitter tactical disadvantages that degraded Egypt position in cease fire talks.

    But, after all, Egyptian Commanders were reallistic enough to know that we didn't have the amount nor the technology to demolish IDF, specially while US is injecting its arsenal into the theatre.

    At the end, If we judge the whole result, Egypt regained its land back, and Israel gave back what it seized, Ofcourse better terms could have been reached if it hadn't been for the situtation on the WB.

    Thanks

  8. #2318
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    this thread was great, now it sucks


    Bull**it after Bullsh**t

    fake "publicities" my a**

    sorry but it's the way it is


    Egypt regained its land back and Israel gave back what it seized? Israel got Egypt recognition, that's the only result of the war

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Star View Post
    According to your official statistics , Israel had more casualty rate in '67 than '73 and lost much more tanks and fighters per day, so why didn't your generals resigned in '67?
    Actual numbers are important not per day or per minute.

    Well, Germany was only few kilometers from Paris in the end of WWI, so Germany won the war?
    No it was not. Allies pushed Germany out of France entered Belgiun and continued advance. German army was collapsing.

    Egypt was only 10 miles from Tel Aviv in 1948, so Egypt won the war?
    They were 20 miles from Tel Aviv in the beginning of the war. By the end Israelis were in Sinai.

    The fighting ended on 18 Jan 1974 (Brigadier Ibrahim Abdel Tawwab killed on 14 Jan), IDF retreated 35 KMs east of the Canal in the end, to avoid its destruction on the west bank (Operation Shamell).
    Operation Shamel would be a mass suicide. Thats why it did not happen. IDF retreated as part of agreement that included retreat of Egyptian troops as well. Out of 1000 tanks only 60 remained in Sinai.

    challanging the outcome is equivilaint to saying Germany won WWII, casue they had occupied most of Europe by 1942.
    You should judge situation by the end of the war and the momentum. By the end of the war 3rd army was encircled and intitiative was completely in IDFs hands.

    Referring to Egypt's attack in the 14th..

    O'Ballance, page 162..

    WOW, 4 hours..
    Here comes the role of the foreign volunteers, IMO..

    In adition, AW&ST wrote that US stocks of TOWs were depleted by 90% during the war.
    "An ounce of ECM is worth a pound of additional aircraft."
    -Major General Hod
    O'Ballance does not know basic facts: first plane landed in Lod airport only on 14 Oct 18:30 Israeli time. When battle already ended.

    Israel had M60, better than either..
    Burning better than either

    You should also notice that Israel rejected all El Sadat's peace initiatives before the war, you can check the US National Archive yourself. After the war, Israel accepted what it refused before the war.
    This was only achieved when IDF was militarily defeated......
    Actually the opposite is true. Israel wanted direct talks without preconditions, while Egypt refused. After the war Egypt agreed to direct talks without preconditions.

    By this time, the IDF was nearly destroyed in Sinai, Israel lost more than 500 tanks in 3 days, more than one third of its airforce was destroyed, it's ammunition were nearly depleted, and its generals were desperate, Dayan said it's the end of the 3rd temple, and even deployed its nukes, and was about to use them..
    When first US plane landed in Israel IDF was advancing into Syria and large Egyptian offensive in Sinai was crushed, as result Egypt lost its offensive capabilities.

  10. #2320

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    Quote Originally Posted by Climber View Post
    this thread was great, now it sucks


    Bull**it after Bullsh**t

    fake "publicities" my a**

    sorry but it's the way it is


    Egypt regained its land back and Israel gave back what it seized? Israel got Egypt recognition, that's the only result of the war
    I think you need to read in depth all Israeili commanders books to realize that they all admitted that it was the first time for them to be put in sensitive defensive position , specially during the first days of the war.

    And they all recall comments and memories from troops who were astonished to see the "invinsible war machime" deteriorating.

    After all, Could you tell me why Israel make settlements in Sinai? Why did they bring Oil Driller to Suez bay oil fields? why did they construct touristic resorts? why did they initiate mining expeditions to look for valueable minerals in Sinai? and many other long term plans for development.

    Were all these plans to be made , and even a lot of them executed, If Israel was only seeking Egyptian recognition?

    Were the billions to be spent and the bitter casualties be sacrficed in both Six Days War and Youm Kippur War, If Israel was only seeking Egyptian recognition?

    I think that is an extreme shorthanding of the war and its outcomes.

    Thanks

  11. #2321
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategist View Post
    I think you need to read in depth all Israeili commanders books to realize that they all admitted that it was the first time for them to be put in sensitive defensive position , specially during the first days of the war.
    There is no need to read "every" commander's book to understand what common sense and my own history taught me.

    What you might consider mighty and heroic from the Egyptian army I would consider sloppiness and overconfidence on my country side.

    And as sensitive defensive position? do you understand that Israel gave more importance to the Syrian front, because the sensitive defensive position that you talk about is the whole freaking Sinai desert?

    Quote Originally Posted by strategist
    And they all recall comments and memories from troops who were astonished to see the "invinsible war machime" deteriorating.
    the only thing I recall was the astonishment about the casualties and the surprise. Once things stabilized I don't recall anything more than pain over the casualties of the war. The "invinsible war machime" is something that I don't recall.
    Quote Originally Posted by strategist
    After all, Could you tell me why Israel make settlements in Sinai? Why did they bring Oil Driller to Suez bay oil fields? why did they construct touristic resorts? why did they initiate mining expeditions to look for valueable minerals in Sinai? and many other long term plans for development.
    To make settlements was, if you know some Israeli history, the way to go in defensive population. And since Israel is so tiny, and the Sinai was so huge, and the Arab neighbouring countries were always so "friendly" to us, keeping the Sinai as a defensive space, to settle and take economic advantages over the occupation makes perfect sense.

    You could argue the legality of it, but not the logic about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by strategist
    Were all these plans to be made , and even a lot of them executed, If Israel was only seeking Egyptian recognition?
    and WHEN or WHERE I said that Israel was only seeking Egyptian recognition? Egypt attacked Israel, so Israel didn't seek anything for the war.

    Since 1948, Israel wanted and needed peace and recognition from the neighbouring countries, but got war. Since we got war, we made war. it is simple.

    So the real thing here is that Egypt, who wanted Israel destroyed, just got his own land back, plus the thing they always tried to avoid, peace and recognition of Israel.

    BTW, I think that the agreement of land for peace, was imposed over Begin and Sadat. It wasn't easy for both parties.
    Quote Originally Posted by strategist
    Were the billions to be spent and the bitter casualties be sacrficed in both Six Days War and Youm Kippur War, If Israel was only seeking Egyptian recognition?

    I think that is an extreme shorthanding of the war and its outcomes.

    Thanks
    that's explained above.


    The Sinai was brought back to Egypt AFTER the Camp David agreements were signed and after the USA gave Israel a guarantee over the issue ( and other issues) in 1975, almost 2 years later.

    The USA were also the winners with Israel, the brought out Egypt from the Soviet influence sphere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexz View Post
    Again, Israel defeated Egypt and thats it.
    WELCOME TO EGYPT alexz


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    i think the discussion is great... everyone have chance to agree or disagree... no need to acuse anything. If you think the post is bullshit, please do point which part and present a counter argument. Rethoric is boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ignoto View Post
    WELCOME TO EGYPT alexz


    Welcome to Egypt indeed.
    (clue, the war was fought at 1973).

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_Wicked View Post

    Welcome to Egypt indeed.
    (clue, the war was fought at 1973).
    they fought and took Taba hotel back

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