Yum Kippur War

[shelata]

Do we agree on that?

We do. I think both the defenders & the attackers do not have adequate offensive capacities.

[rolist]

OK, on this map, 143rd is not at Deversoir, but this map is not accurate and does not reflect the positions on October 22nd.
If you want to argue all the points, I'm OK if it's done within the perspective to understand the situation accurately.

I suggest we do it point by point.
Let's start by the Missouri. I told you that there was not much left of the OFFENSIVE capacities of Eg divisions 16th and 21st, and that they were not a threat anymore to the bridge-head. And I gave you a proof.

You answered that the, on October 22nd, IDF attacked the 16th Division and failed to take Missouri. True! (Actually, it took only a part of it, if I remember well.) But it only proves that the 16th Division still had DEFENSIVE capacities left.
Do we agree on that?

Hi Guys,

I visited Latrun twice in the past 10 days. Once about a week ago with a Jewish WW2 veteran and of course today – memorial day
I must say that there is a huge collection of armoured vehicles – it became the second largest armoured museum
Anyone who is interested it that subject must visit the place
Secondly – there is a very good presentation of the Yom Kippur military movements – I tried to get a CD but did not have a chance with all the ceremony – the funds to produce and get the presentation under a roof was donated by Moshe Levy – I hope that at least some of you heard about him and no he is not the ex chief of stuff

[Kaplanr]

Plan to be there on 15 June. All day if i can (meaning if my wife lets me.)

[Camera]

Hi rolist,

I know only Moshe Levy who was the chief of staff.
I visited Latrun museum in the 90s. Should do it again next time I come to Israel as the collection of vehicles is larger now.
Few days ago, I visited again the website of the 421st Brigade and I discovered the PDF files of the booklets, scanned and put online. Very interesting, and they include amazing pictures.

If you have some maps you can publish on this thread , it will help us to discuss better the subject. (As you can see, the map found by Shelata of IDF's movements on the West Bank is not accurate at all.)

Today, on Ynet, there was an audio recording of a meeting, held few hours before the beginning of Abirei Lev. During this meeting, Ariel Sharon explains the plan to Shmuel Gonen and to Haim Bar Lev. The quality of the audio is very good: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4066432,00.html

Rollist, in the beginning of this audio, Arik explains how the 421st tanks are towing the Roller bridge, helped by bulldozers to make their way… He says that Shot-Kal would fit better. (Around 30-40 seconds from the beginning of the audio.)

For those who are following the TOW issue:
At 5'45" Bar Lev asks Sharon if Dany Mat received “those new rockets (LAW)“. Sharon is not sure. Gonen confirms that Mat's brigade received 1,000 LAW rockets. No mention of TOWs.

[Camera]

We do. I think both the defenders & the attackers do not have adequate offensive capacities.

The Egyptians on the East Bank did not have anymore enough offensive capacities to threaten the bridge head. On October 22nd, the IDF had already 3 bridges established: the Roller bridge, the Dovrot bridge and the Tzena bridge. The construction of the 4th bridge, the Stone bridge, started or was about to start.

Sharon's 143rd Division advanced on the West Bank with Mat's paratroopers brigade and 2 armor brigades. Its 3rd armor brigade, the 600th Brigade, remained on the East Bank and faced Eg 16th division.

On the West Bank, the missions of 143rd Division were multiples:
- destroy SAM sites, artillery batteries, bridges…
- engage from the ramps of the West Bank the Egyptian units deployed on the East Bank.
- cut supply roads of the 2nd army: road and railroad to the Delta, sweet water canal (which was navigable).
- and encircle the 2nd Army in a later stage when more brigades will strengthen 143rd Div. (They were on the way to the south.)

600th Brigade, which remained on the East Bank, was pushing Eg 16th Division to the north, while, since October 19th, units of 143rd Division were supporting this effort with direct aimed fire from the ramps of the West Bank. It was an efficient strategy of a continued pressure which forced 16th Division to a constant retreat, without the high loss in lives as a direct offensive by the IDF. That's the reason why 143rd Division did not rush to reach Ismailia, and its advancement along the canal, toward the North, was quite slow.
As a result, on October 22nd, the remains of the 16th Eg division were entrenched on Missouri hill. From there, they could not aim any direct fire on the area of the bridges. But from that hill, they could still see them and direct Eg artillery fire.

Although at this sector, Eg artillery did not have anymore the strength it had few days before, Gonen decided that 600th Brigade should try to take Missouri on the the cease fire's eve, in the afternoon of October 22nd. Sharon did not think it was necessary, and opposed this idea as costly in lives as the defenders had AT strength. But finally, Sharon was forced to execute Gonen's orders. And as you know, this assault failed.

I'm quite busy these days, but I'll look for sources to show you the deployment and the movements of the IDF on the West Bank. Then you will better understand the global strategy, and the threat the 143rd Division presented to the Eg 2nd Army. And you would review then the importance you have granted to Missouri. (Your misunderstanding of the situation relay on the fact that the map you have is completely WRONG.)

[shelata]

For those who are following the TOW issue:
At 5'45" Bar Lev asks Sharon if Dany Mat received “those new rockets, the LAW“. Sharon is not sure. Gonen confirms that Mat's brigade received 1,000 LAW rockets. No mention of TOWs.

In addition to Hammad & Gayrush, Simon Dunstan book of 2005 (Yom Kippur 1973 War-published by Osprey), confirms that TWO missiles were employed efficiently by IDF in the 14th tank battles:-



In the above paragraph, Dunstan points to the trials of the US to conceal these missiles employment for some reason!

[shelata]

Sorry-Cancelled!

[Camera]

In addition to Hammad & Gayrush, Simon Dunstan book of 2005 (Yom Kippur 1973 War-published by Osprey), confirms that TWO missiles were employed efficiently by IDF in the 14th tank battles:-



In the above paragraph, Dunstan points to the trials of the US to conceal these missiles employment for some reason!

I think this TOW issue is not more than a rumor that spread after the war. It resulted maybe by a confusion between the TOW and the LAW, both new in the arena. And now this mistaken idea can be found in some publications on YKW. (It's a fact that even commanders in the IDF didn't know well the potential of the TOW missile. In a previous comment, I reported how Sharon was curious to test the TOW in late 1973, during the war of attrition.)
I found some comments on Fresh saying that the first TOW crews were deployed in fact on the Jordanian border. The reason: to secure defenses on this border, while liberating more armor for the Egyptian and the Syrian fronts.
There are also some fanny stories about these weapons. Example: During YKW, Shaul Mofaz, then platoon commander of recce paratroopers, and later chief of staff, decided to use LAW rockets in a commando operation in Syria. Then, the paratroopers of his platoon took for that mission the training model of the LAW who's warhead was filled with plaster! They made that mistake, because the weapon was new to them.

[rolist]

First - sorry for my typo 0 should read Cheif fo Staff
I have no doubt that will find it most interesting - take a camera of couse
I don't know when have you been there last time - also I am not sure who can guide you - perhaps there is a service for that - I can ask if you like

[IDF_TANKER]

Plan to be there on 15 June. All day if i can (meaning if my wife lets me.)

Talk to me before, mate. Maybe we could arrange something together.

[rolist]

Talk to me before, mate. Maybe we could arrange something together.

First - sorry for my typo 0 should read Cheif fo Staff
I have no doubt that will find it most interesting - take a camera of couse
I don't know when have you been there last time - also I am not sure who can guide you - perhaps there is a service for that - I can ask if you like

As for the 15th - thank but a realy can't
We have a meeting on that date planning already the 40th anniversary to Yom Kippur war

[Camera]

Shelata:

Here you have a more accurate map of IDF movements in the West Bank:



Now, compare it with the map you uploaded and you'll see why your map is FALSE:



According to your map, after the ceasefire of October 22nd, all IDF divisions launched an offensive on the West Bank, bringing them to the lines of October 24th. That's completely WRONG.
In the sector of Ismailia, 143rd Division was already deployed in its final positions in October 22nd. In this sector, the ceasefire of October 22nd was respected and there were no more movements after October 22nd.
Along Suez Canal, Sharon's Division was near the suburbs of Ismailia, in October 22nd. While in your map it remains somewhere between Ismailia and Deversoir in the end of the war.

Both Adan's & Magan's divisions were much more advanced in October 22nd than in your map.
Magan's Division had cut already Cairo-Suez road at Kilometer 101. Adan's division was encircling the 3rd Army, and achieved its final positions in October 24th.

You can see now why keeping troops on Missouri was not a direct threat to IDF's bridge-head in Deversoir area.

[IDF_TANKER]

Camera mate, your knowledge is truly encyclopedic. Do you happen to be involved in this stuff professionally or something? Some quality historical rigor in this thread, finally.

[Camera]

Camera mate, your knowledge is truly encyclopedic. Do you happen to be involved in this stuff professionally or something? Some quality historical rigor in this thread, finally.

No, I'm not involved professionally in this stuff.
During my childhood there were 3 major wars: The Six Days War, The War of Attrition and YKW. And these events were a part of our own story, the story of our families and our friends.
During YKW, I was already in high-school: old enough to understand, but under the age of military service. During the war, all the men - around me, around my relatives and in the families of my friends - were mobilized. Most of them survived and came back. But some didn't. First we learned about the war from the medias. Then, parents who served in the army told us their story. Later, there were books and films… So for the people of my generation understanding YKW war important, as all these events coincided with the end of our childhood and becoming adults. For this reason, my interest in this war remained.
In fact, I'm a filmmaker but I never worked on this subject.

[IDF_TANKER]

I see, thanks.