In some cases, it might've adversely affected morale. Showing a pic with say 1-3 destroyed IDF tanks is one thing but at Tirtur as many as 40 wrecks might've been seen in a pic.Originally Posted by IDF_TANKER
A question to IDF_TANKER, did you learn rapid-fire techniques during your time? As I understand it the way of Israeli tank gunnery was probably the top notch of the whole world in 1973 and IŽd like to find out what exactly made it so different and so good.
Define "rapid fire technique". There was no special technique for fast firing (unless you are talking about "firing in the short stops" - special technique for firing on the move on the distant targets). Every firing should be done as fast as possible. We always do it with the stopper - driver measures the time passed since getting into firing position, because firing from the exposed firing position is limited in time. I whish I could tell you more, but I think it's enough. I can only add that the firing techniques in IDF are pretty sophisticated, I could easily fill a couple of pages describing them to you even before going into detail. The only really unique thing to IDF armor is the sniper tanks (crews), I never heard about this in other militaries.
I ask because this excerpt from "The Yom Kippur War" by Abraham Rabinovich(p. 61) stunned me:And there are other stories like this starting when General Tal took over command of the Armor Corps and proved his way of using tanks, even for extreme long range shots, during the War of the Waters. Ever since then gunnery became the landmark and I wondered what exactly made the Israeli way so special. Fast loading is one thing...aiming and hitting first-round with 1950s-60s technology in such rapid and accurate ways the other.The northern half of the line on the Golan Heights was held by a tank battalion commanded by Lt. Col. Yair Nafshi. The day he assumed command the year before, he announced to the men his intention to focus on gunnery. The only way to overcome the numerical superiority of the Syrian tanks opposite them, he said, was to shoot faster and straighter. Turning to a gunner, he asked, "How long would it take to hit three tanks coming straight at you at 1,200 meters?" Four minutes, the gunner replied. Others thought they could do it in half that time. Not even a minute, said Nafshi. He let the laughter die down before saying he would demonstrate.
As the men walked with him to a nearby gunnery range, he briefed a crewman on a borrowed tank on how he wanted him to load the shells. The men sat on the ground to watch the demonstration, some of them holding stopwatches. The tank commander gave Nafshi, in the gunner's position, the order to fire. Nafshi hit three tank targets, spaced 50 yards apart, with three rapid shots and jumped down from the tank. The stopwatches showed less than 10 seconds.
Gunnery proficiency became the unit's hallmark. Nafshi cultivated "snipers" who could hit their targets at long range. He had them wear gray uniforms instead of standard green to give them special status. Tanks which scored hits on Syrian tanks during skirmishes had tank silhouettes pasted to the side of their turrets to indicate their "kills".
The emphasis on long range shooting no doubt owed much to the terrain. In the desert, there are few if any obstructions like trees or buildings, so ranges tend to be greater.
Again, I have a trouble to answer your question, because I don't know how it is done in other armies. Everything done by gunner and loader(not only loading) is done with the stopper (in general, every tank drill is done with stopper, but AFAIK this is nothing unique to IDF). Every loading/shooting drill is designed to minimize time between shots. During a fire exercise, for example, a loader will be at any given moment holding a round in his hands ready to load, while another round is loaded in the gun. What you described in your quote is nothing extraordinary for a trained gunner/loader - shooting at the "tanks couple"(for a lack of better translation - a couple or more tanks placed near each other at the same distance) with about 4 sec per shot or less.I ask because this excerpt from "The Yom Kippur War" by Abraham Rabinovich(p. 61) stunned me:
And there are other stories like this starting when General Tal took over command of the Armor Corps and proved his way of using tanks, even for extreme long range shots, during the War of the Waters. Ever since then gunnery became the landmark and I wondered what exactly made the Israeli way so special. Fast loading is one thing...aiming and hitting first-round with 1950s-60s technology in such rapid and accurate ways the other.
True on its face, except the technique was perfected and first practiced in the north when the Syrians still held the Golan.
I copied this from an earlier post of this thread. I think this answers as well what was happening on the syrian front.
[ IDF started the war with 1700no tanks. These includes 400no M48, 150no M60, 850No centurions, 150no shermans & 150no upgrdaded T54/55. All IDF tanks are equipped with 105mm guns.
Egypt started the war with 1650No T54 & T55 tanks. These are equipped with 100mm guns. In addition egypt was equipped with 100no T62 tanks of 115mm guns.
The difference in quality between the Egyptian equipped russian tanks & IDF tanks is considerable regarding manover capability & ammunition.
Below is an example of one of the differences between the primary tanks in both armies.]
Isn't that true
R
Just 100? At least two brigades--the 25th and 15th, were T-62 equipped; probably one or two others.
You're mixing apples and oranges here. DemolitionMan asked about Israeli gunnery preactices. It was pointed out in several sources that the IDF gunnery came into its own under Israel Tal as CO of the Armoured Corps. Tal's tenure began in 1964; meaning the techniques and doctrine were in place before the Six Day War. Starman then commented that the desert environment lent itself to perfecting Tal's priorities.
The first opportunity the IDF had to practice those lessons was the fighting during the Syrian attempts to divert the headwaters of the Jordan, before 1967. Therefore the Golan was still Syrian. This has nothing to do with 67 or 73.
Optical range finder is a nice thing, butIsn't that true
R
1) Russian tanks were much lower.
2) They were better armored.
3) They had dry turret traverse.
Hi Starman:-
While this post states the figure of 100 for the Egyptians T62 tanks, Shazli book confirms that egypt has gone to the war with 200 no only. As you said the 25th & 15th brigades have got 100 each.
R
Alright with no knowledge of other armies gunnery it is of course hard to answer. Totally understand that. However when we take into account that during the NATO Canadian Army Trophy gunnery competition in the 1980s, an average excellent time for a tank like the M1 Abrams or the Leopard 2 was about 11 seconds from spotting a target to destroying it, it makes one wonder...the older 105mm tanks who took part in those shootings(M60, Leopard 1) had an average time of about 16 seconds to engage and destroy a target. See now where my stunning about 10 seconds for 3 targets, even with fast-loading, came from?
Regain? They've lost it?
Hi RPG,What about the regime protection units--the 27th etc?
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