Thread: Yum Kippur War

  1. #2386
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    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    Egypt already accomplished what it wanted since the first day in this war,
    Then why it refused the cease fire offer of 12th?

    What have i been trying to tell you for the third now, is that the war already came to an end, and that Israel made the cease fire violations knowing that the war was not supposed to be continued, and there for it should not worry about it's troops in the west bank.
    I dont really understand what are you trying to say. That Israel could encircle 3rd army before 22th Oct but did not do that because it worried about its trops west to canal??

    And you are not trying to say that the Egyptians were like "Attaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack............oh...no,no do not attack, we forgot they control our supplies", right? The deal was that supplies were to be let through to the 3rd army, in return for Israeli POW's.
    Israel captured much much more POWs.

    The atrillery shelling of the 4th of october was a failure; not very concentrated, or accurate, and did not last long enough.
    It was quite heavy shelling.

    And about the Sagger vs TOW evaluation u put up there, i talked about their effectiveness with their respective users witnessed in this war, and you say some analysis about the weapons them selves?!
    Saggers were effective because they were used in enermous numbers. But 1-1 Sagger is nowhere close to TOW. Its like Abrams vs T-55.

    much better repair effectiveness (mainly because their tanks would be hit and get repaired, unlike the soviet steal cases we were using that get blown up to pieces with the first hit).
    Actually Soviet tanks had "dry" turret traverse, unlike Pattons which had very flaming hydraulics.

    If we should talk theoretically, then:
    - The Egyptian forces should not have been able to cross the canal in less than two days, at least 24 hours. yet, they did it in 6 hours
    - 10,000 to 35,000 egyptian soldiers were supposed to dye in the first assault. yet, only 280 did
    How could 450 Israeli soldiers shelled by 2000 pieces of artillery kill 10,000?

    - The Israel armored columns should not have been repelled by small groups of Egyptian commandos, yet they did
    U mean small group of 35,000 (over 2 divisions) could repell an armor brigade?

    - El-Mansoura air battle was supposed to be a second Operation Focus, yet the IAF lost five times as many aircrafts in air-air combat, and El-mansoura air base and neer by air fields were still functioning.
    El Mansoura fiction.

    - By 22th oct. the Israelis were supposed to be having Ismailiya, Suez, and encircling the 3rd army, by 22oct. none of that happened.
    - By the war end, Israeli forces were supposed to be having two major Egyptian cities, encircling a whole army, and cutting one major supply route going to the other; That also did not happen.
    Well lets check facts:

    1) Egypt made a surprise attack.
    2) Egypt used in war 10 divisions vs 4 Israeli.
    3) Nevertheless by the end of the war Israel
    a) captured much more POWs.
    b) inflicted much more loses.
    c) captured more territory.
    d) encircled some 30,000 troops.

    From the beginning, my point was that maybe we wont agree on who fought better, or of whom was the tactical situation in favor; But we can agree on what was achieved by this war, and perhaps that's what really matters.
    I disagree that Egypt had any chance with 5 divisions against 3 Israeli armor divisions in prepared positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by megaidler View Post
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Israel[/FONT][/COLOR][*******black][FONT=Verdana] eventually accepted the UN Security Council resolution that called for a cease fire because if it wouldn't, the consequences will be a U.S. arms and oil embargo on Israel while the Soviets would continue to deliver arms to the Arabs.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by shelata View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Source this statement with its date of issuance & its recording attendants.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]What do you think wiould happen if Israel would publicly refuse to accept a UN Security Council resolution that call all sides to stop fighting while the U.S. supports this resolution.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]After all, the U.S. refused to re supply Israel until 12/10, when Israel finally agreed for a truce.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Soviet did not make such condition to the Arabs.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by shelata View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The cease fire issuance on the 22nd was a result of combined parameters including :-[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]1- Egyptian army commanders recognition of US full involvment ( Not Directly) in the tactical war daily struggle. This involvment included military field action advices, Superior advanced weapons supply, High calipper military volanteers transfer to Israel & conventional weapons replacement.[/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]While the U.S. agreed to re supply Israel only on 12/10,[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Soviets had already agreed to re supply Syria on 10/10 and Egypt on 11/10.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Both sides were massively supplied by their supporting super powers but only Egypt and Syria asked for a cease fire, not Israel.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]And there were no foreign volunteers who fought for Israel in 1973 as I know; [/FONT][/COLOR]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]only former Israelis that returned to Israel when they heard that their former country is in danger.[/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by shelata View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The prompt huge IDF reinforcements canal crossing following the cease fire declaration, confirms the 22nd of OCT ceasefire importance for IDF 23rd & 24th military operations.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]As it was noted previously by "500":[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    Quote Originally Posted by 500 View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]On the dawn of 17th crossing actually was only beginning.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Here how it was:[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][FONT=Verdana][*******black]At 4:30 PM 17 Oct: the first (Dovrot) bridge was opened.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]Night 17-18 Oct: two brigades of Adan (Natke and Amir) crossed.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]Night 18-19 Oct: last brigade of Adan (500th) and artillery division crossed.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]19 Oct morning: Glilim bridge opened.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]19 Oct: Magen division crossed.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]19 Oct: Reshef brigade from Sharons div crosses and joined there Erez brigade that crossed first on 16th. Tuvia remain on East shore to protect the corridor.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]So virtually all forces crossed till 19th Oct.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Only Sarig's brigade arrived from Golan on last day of war.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Dovrot means barges in Hebrew and Glilim means rollers[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]



    Quote Originally Posted by megaidler View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]destruction of the Egyptian SAM umbrella by Israeli tanks and airplane [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [FONT=Verdana][*******black](54 batteries were lost out of about 80)[/COLOR][/FONT] [/LEFT]
    Quote Originally Posted by shelata View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Egyptian SAM umbrella protecting the largest Egyptian army (2nd army) was not touched. The Egyptian army had 155 SAM batteries before the War. IDF destroyed some, but all were replaced before the War end.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]In the outbreak of the war there were about 80 batteries on the canal area,
    including mobile SA-6.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]In Port Said sector,
    the SAMs were replaced twice but after the Israelis destroyed it in the 3rd time, [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]it wasn't replaced any more.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Many SAMs covering the 2nd army were destroyed by air strikes.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Some details are available on the English version of the Israeli air force official web site.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by megaidler View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Finally Kissinger offered Saadat to make a deal.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]Saadat must leave the Soviet sphere of influence, [/COLOR][/FONT]
    [LEFT][FONT=Verdana][*******black]abandon his alliance with the Arab world and become an ally of the U.S.[/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]
    Quote Originally Posted by shelata View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Again, a source is badly needed.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Unfortunately the only reliable sources are in Hebrew but this issue is also mentioned in wikipedia.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]



    Quote Originally Posted by megaidler View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Egypt[/FONT][/COLOR][*******black][FONT=Verdana]'s situation became desperate than ever on 24/10 when the 3rd army became trapped.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    Quote Originally Posted by shelata View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Not true. This exact date records IDF adan division defeat against Suez City.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Adan's failure in Suez does not change the fact that the 3rd army was still cut off from its supplies and its drinking water was running out.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]



    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Shelata[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]I suggest you to look for the 1973 war on the following site:[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]cgscsearch.leavenworth.army.mil[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]"The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: The Albatross of Decisive Victory"[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]by Dr. George Gawrych [/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]This is a research made by the U.S department of defense, [/FONT][/COLOR]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]and it is probably a reliable document.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Please read the entire document.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Israel[/FONT][/COLOR][*******black][FONT=Verdana] had better tanks, better and more aircrafts[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Egyptians had no less than 200 T-62,
    equipped with night vision measures and gun stabilizers,[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Something the Israelis hadn't.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]However the Egyptians sent their T-62s into offensive operations during daylight.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Egypt[/FONT][/COLOR][*******black][FONT=Verdana] and Syria, that were partially supported by other Arab states,
    had together much more tanks than the Israelis.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Mig-21 is much superior than F-4 (phantom II) in dogfights.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Israelis sent their self made "Nesher" (vulture in Hebrew) airplanes to confront the Migs.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Nesher is a copy of the French Mirage V.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]The French refused to sell those planes to the Israelis so the Mossad stole the blueprints and the Israelis made this aircraft by their own.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Egypt[/FONT][/COLOR][*******black][FONT=Verdana] and Syria had together more aircraft than the Israelis.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Egyptian forces should not have been able to cross the canal in less than two days, at least 24 hours. Yet, they did it in 6 hours[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Considering that the U.S. did not allow the Israelis to make a preemptive strike against the Egyptians,[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]No wonder that they could cross so fast.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Egyptians made all their preparations for the crossing under the cover of cease fire and when the Israelis were finally allowed to use fire on 14:00,
    in response for the Egyptian shelling, [/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][FONT=Verdana][*******black]the entire Egyptian army was already on the water line of the canal,
    waiting for orders to cross.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]On the other hand the Israelis had no such privilege for their own crossing operation.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]They had to bring forces from long distance to the canal while all this time the Egyptians try to bomb those troops en route.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]10,000 to 35,000 egyptian soldiers were supposed to dye in the first assault.
    yet, only 280 did[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Egyptian leaders have never published the number and names of the soldiers who died in the glorious October war.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]I don't think they ever tried to count their dead,
    and it's probably the same with the crossing phase.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]



    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]25% of the first air strike was supposed to be shot down, only 5-4 aircrafts were lost.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]On the other hand, The Israelis, on their official air force web site (available in English) claim to shoot down 18 Egyptian planes and no less than 10 helicopter on the first day.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]



    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Israel armored columns should not have been repelled by small groups of Egyptian commandos, yet they did[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Small forces of commandos were not what repelled the tank brigades.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]It was superior numbers, some times 30 infantry men equipped with anti tank weaponry for each advancing tank.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Even in the crossing phase when 250 Israeli tanks had to face 30,000 crossing Egyptians+covering fire from the west bank, many Egyptian soldiers threw their rifles and ran away.[/FONT][/COLOR]


    [/LEFT]
    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]According to Israeli generals, the Egyptians should have been begging for a cease fire in four days, and for four days, the Israelis could not drive the Egyptians back.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]For the first four days the entire Israeli air force was dealing with the Syrians.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]After two weeks, Saadat did beg loudly for a cease fire.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]



    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]El-Mansoura air battle was supposed to be a second Operation Focus, yet the IAF lost five times as many aircrafts in air-air combat[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The El-Mansoura air battle story is a lie and was fabricated in order to preserve the reputation of the failed general Hosni Mobarak.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Mobarak was promoted only because he was loyal to Saadat.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]On 14/10/1973 the Israelis lost one aircraft to enemy fire and another one due to a technical malfunction.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]The Egyptians lost 16 aircraft at least that day.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]





    Quote Originally Posted by just some guy over there View Post
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]- By 22th oct. the Israelis were supposed to be having Ismailiya, Suez, and encircling the 3rd army, by 22oct. none of that happened.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]- By the war end, Israeli forces were supposed to be having two major Egyptian cities, encircling a whole army, and cutting one major supply route going to the other; That also did not happen.[/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]So we didn't succeed to achieve some goals as quick we wished.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Not every thing is possible in this world.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Eventually the 3rd army was encircled and if it wasn't the superpowers, [/FONT][/COLOR]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]the 2nd army would suffer the same faith.
    Saadat knew it and desperately requested a cease fire.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]If some one will ever discover that the Israelis had some plans to conquer Alexandria, [/FONT][/COLOR]
    [FONT=Verdana][*******black]something that eventually didn't happen,
    is it means that the Egyptians decisively won?[/COLOR][/FONT][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]






    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]Before the war Saadat did not agree to make a separate peace with Israel while Syria, Jordan and the Palestinians gain nothing.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]During the war, Saadat decided to make his shift from the Soviets to the Americans without asking any of his Arab allies.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [LEFT][*******black][FONT=Verdana]I don't think that the Syrians would join the October war if they knew what Saadat was ready to do in desperate scenes.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [*******black][FONT=Verdana]Saadat's move was nasty, but on the other hand, what any other option did he have?[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    [/LEFT]
    Last edited by megaidler; 12-06-2009 at 12:31 PM.

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    Sorry if i wont be able to continue the discussion for some thing like a weak or two, i have lot of things to do, so hope me good luck.
    Until i return, i am asking you megaidler to show us your sources, please. And BTW, it's Sadat not Saadat. And if you think that Egypt or any other country should first council it's neighbors and take their permission to make it's own decisions; then you really are just like our Arab "friends" who think that Egypt has to fight their wars for them, win for them, and council them for it's own politics.
    Let the Arabs you know...do some thing; liberate a single inch of their lands, then come and talk about what should the Egyptians have done when they won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsh View Post
    "


    Hi Shelata,

    I don't really think you understand the argument that I and others are making about the use of TOW. I have already stated that the IDF received TOW during the October War. I know, one of my closest friends was involved in hasty training on the system. However, the number of TOWs received and introduced into service during the war itself was insignificant.

    If you wish to understand why the Egyptian army received such a serious set back during the battle of October 14th, have a look at Kenneth Pollack's Arabs at War pages 116-118. Perhaps you would like to scan and post the information there? I am afraid I do not have a scanner or would do so myself. Perhaps you would like to also scan Dupuy's account of the 14th October battle? You know, the one to be found on pages 485-491 in his book Elusive Victory. I suspect you won't as Dupuy, along with other serious authors, talks of the drubbing Egyptian armour received at the hands of quick moving and thinking IDF armour formations and guess what? not a TOW unit in sight.

    Alternatively, you could scan page 65 of Cordesman's Lessons of Modern Warfare volume 1. There there is a detailed breakdown on IDF usage of TOWs during the war. To summerise; the IDF fired 20 TOWs during the war scoring 13 hits. The IDF suffered problems with miswiring and gudance thanks to the hasty nature of the weapons introduction and truncated training


    cheers
    Marsh
    .

    Its been 6 months since someone posted in this thread, so I`ll try to bring it to life by posting some of the pages Marsh referred to in the above post.











    I also have a question that is only indirectly linked to the YK war, but I`ll ask it anyway.

    In Kenneth M. Pollack`s book "Arabs at war" on page 92 & 93, he writes briefly about "Operation Raviv" in 1969, where the IDF launched a raid onto the Egyptian coast with T-55 and BTR-50`s, destroying SAM sites, camps and AFV`s.

    Pollack writes the following :" and even capturing one of five new Soviet T-62 tanks in Egypt for trials and evaluation".

    Is this true? Did the Israelis capture a T-62 back in 1969?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vidar View Post

    Is this true? Did the Israelis capture a T-62 back in 1969?
    That's impossible. The first T-62's arrived in Egypt post-1970, during Sadat's reign.

    BTW, it sounds reasonable that the Saggers would account for 25% or less of all Israeli tanks destroyed. The influence these weapons had on the battlefield were greatly exaggerated by Egyptians and Israelis, with different motives.

    However I far from agree with the analysis on the TOWs. These ones, for sure, did account for many tanks destroyed on October 14 and on later battles. The "mis-wired" claim appears to be just another excuse behind the claim that these weapons were not used: they arrived too late, or troops didn't have time to train, or they were just miswired. TOW's arrived before October 14 with US army instructors. Training on a TOW is much easier than a Sagger; you simply fire and keep aiming visually, nothing like directing a missile with a joystick. The technicalities of operating these weapons would not require much experience or training either. At least, they accounted for 15% and upwards of Egyptian tank losses in the war.

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    Junior Member Salaheldin's Avatar
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    wonderful !!!

    160 pages and still arguing !


    simply , Egypt fought for a particular purpose " restoring Sinai "


    and they managed to achieve their goal by war & peace , if Israel was in a better situation , it wouldn't allow the Egyptians to restore Sinai even by war or peace , but Egypt was in a better situation .


    so , Egypt won

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salaheldin View Post
    wonderful !!!

    160 pages and still arguing !


    simply , Egypt fought for a particular purpose " restoring Sinai "


    and they managed to achieve their goal by war & peace , if Israel was in a better situation , it wouldn't allow the Egyptians to restore Sinai even by war or peace , but Egypt was in a better situation .


    so , Egypt won
    No, Israel won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salaheldin View Post
    wonderful !!!

    160 pages and still arguing !


    simply , Egypt fought for a particular purpose " restoring Sinai "


    and they managed to achieve their goal by war & peace , if Israel was in a better situation , it wouldn't allow the Egyptians to restore Sinai even by war or peace , but Egypt was in a better situation .


    so , Egypt won
    And without the Kartoum Arab League triple No, Egypt would have gotten the Sinai back without even having to send one single tank across the Suez canal.
    But documented facts shouldn't come in the way of the "Land of the Heros"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salaheldin View Post
    wonderful !!!

    160 pages and still arguing !


    simply , Egypt fought for a particular purpose " restoring Sinai "


    and they managed to achieve their goal by war & peace , if Israel was in a better situation , it wouldn't allow the Egyptians to restore Sinai even by war or peace , but Egypt was in a better situation .


    so , Egypt won
    Iarael and Syria were close to a peace agreement in the 90s. If it would have been signed and Syria would have gotten the Golan or parts of it, would it mean they also won the Yom Kippur war?
    Jordan didn't even participate in the Yom Kippur war and it also got some territory back in the peace deal is signed with Israel. I suppose they won the 6 days war too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salaheldin View Post
    wonderful !!!

    160 pages and still arguing !


    simply , Egypt fought for a particular purpose " restoring Sinai "


    and they managed to achieve their goal by war & peace , if Israel was in a better situation , it wouldn't allow the Egyptians to restore Sinai even by war or peace , but Egypt was in a better situation .


    so , Egypt won

    On this forum we expect something more in a post, especially in this section. Try to do better next time. Your post comes across as flame bait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexz View Post
    Iarael and Syria were close to a peace agreement in the 90s. If it would have been signed and Syria would have gotten the Golan or parts of it, would it mean they also won the Yom Kippur war?
    Jordan didn't even participate in the Yom Kippur war and it also got some territory back in the peace deal is signed with Israel. I suppose they won the 6 days war too?
    Hi Alex,
    Perhaps Jordan did not fight to its full potential, but it certainly did participate in the Yom Kippur war and earned the *****es and bruises to prove it.
    cheers
    Marsh

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    Senior Member shelata's Avatar
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    ALEXS quotes
    Iarael and Syria were close to a peace agreement in the 90s. If it would have been signed and Syria would have gotten the Golan or parts of it, would it mean they also won the Yom Kippur war?
    Jordan didn't even participate in the Yom Kippur war and it also got some territory back in the peace deal is signed with Israel. I suppose they won the 6 days war too?
    Interesting. Actually, the Situation on the Egyptian front by the end of the War was described by different commentators as follows:-
    As a final statement, a quote from Dupuy:
    If War is the employment of military force in support of political objectives,
    there can be no doubt that in strategic and political terms the Arab States
    and particularly Egypt -- won the War,
    even though the military outcome was a stalemate
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1989/PSJ.htm

    In a differnt source ( Zionist source) the following statement is recorded:-
    Israel had won a clear victory against Syria, conquering considerable territory beyond the cease fire lines of 1967 and advancing to within about 20 miles from Damascus. . In Sinai however, the Egyptians were still on the Israeli side of the canal, with their second army, while the Israelis had surrounded the third army and advanced toward Cairo
    http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/YomKippurWar.htm
    Till today, IDF still does not allow the full documatations of this war to be published. The outcome of many battles especially on the Egyptian front are heavily censored by the Israeli authorites.

    Again, Egypt had to go to War on OCT 1973 as it was clear that the Israelies are turning down all the respectfull peace arrangements. It was clear through the various offers that were made by Sadat prior to th War, that the Israeli rulers were not willing to to withdraw to the 4th of June 67 borders. Even with full peace agreements with Egypt, the Israelies expressed thier belief that alterations should be made to the 67 border lines . The upperhand tactic that was showed by Israel during the pre-war peace negotiations left no doubt to the Egyptians that a military blow must be directed to IDF to restore Egypt wrights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsh View Post
    Hi Alex,
    Perhaps Jordan did not fight to its full potential, but it certainly did participate in the Yom Kippur war and earned the *****es and bruises to prove it.
    cheers
    Marsh
    Are you sure ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
    "On the night of September 25, Hussein secretly flew to Tel Aviv to warn Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir of an impending Syrian attack."

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    The truth of the matter is that Israel successfully fought off both Syria and Egypt simultaneously with the disadvantage of being surprised. The Egyptans can't squirm out of these basic facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgoul View Post
    And without the Kartoum Arab League triple No, Egypt would have gotten the Sinai back without even having to send one single tank across the Suez canal.
    From Wikipedia:
    "According to Chaim Herzog:
    On June 19, 1967, the National Unity Government of Israel voted unanimously to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria in return for peace agreements.
    The Israeli decision was to be conveyed to the Arab states by the U.S. government. The U.S. was informed of the decision, but not that it was to transmit it. There is no evidence of receipt from Egypt or Syria, who thus apparently never received the offer. The decision was kept a closely guarded secret within Israeli government circles and the offer was withdrawn in October, 1967.
    "

    Apparently, not long after they informed the US, Israel felt it had made a grave mistake. Note that, at the time, Arab states had agreed to UNSCR 242, and the Israeli decision of land for peace would have fulfilled a great part of that resolution. I guess the global praise raining on Israel that David had defeated Goliath and Israel had overcome all odds against the warmongering Arabs pumped too much pride and confidence into the Israelis, who quietly overturned their decision as if it had never been. All Israel needed was a final push and it would withdraw its offer, locking on to the idea that it could maintain its dominance and occupation of foreign territory. The three no's was that final push. Between June and the September three no's were two months at least. If Israel was serious about its decision, it would have seen it through.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexz View Post
    Iarael and Syria were close to a peace agreement in the 90s. If it would have been signed and Syria would have gotten the Golan or parts of it, would it mean they also won the Yom Kippur war?
    Jordan didn't even participate in the Yom Kippur war and it also got some territory back in the peace deal is signed with Israel. I suppose they won the 6 days war too?
    Sadat sought to resolve the conflict politically first. He tried this in 1971 with his peace initiatives, which failed due to Israeli demands for concessions (as in Israeli retention of parts of the Sinai for its "security"). He tried again in February 1973, renewing his 1971 initiative and directly contacted the US via Kissinger. Kissinger's reply was that the US could only exert so much pressure on Israel, and that Egypt should make more concessions, also warning Sadat not to even contemplate war. Soon after, the US announced the shipping of some 50 Phantom aircraft to Israel, Kissinger showing the measure of pressure he could apply on Israel. Golda Meir rejected the proposal as well, believing Israel was powerful enough to maintain the highly advantageous status quo.

    The 1990's peace negotiations between Israel and Syria probably failed for the same reasons. At any rate, had they succeeded, it would not have been due to the Yom Kippur War; conversely, the Camp David Accords could be directly linked to the Yom Kippur War. As for Jordan, signing a peace deal with them, which will put them out of the conflict, while Israel does not make any concessions (Jordan did not regain land), is quite logical.

    If it had not been for the Yom Kippur War, the Israelis would not have changed their stance, and neither would the US. With time, the Arab cause would have simply rotted away, and the possibility of Egypt regaining its occupied territories would fade into thin air.

    See Last Chance to Avoid War: Sadat's Peace Initiative of February 1973 and its Failure by Uri Bar-Joseph (http://jch.sagepub.com/cgi/content/a.../41/3/545?etoc)

    See The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: Arab Policies, Strategies, and Campaigns by USMC Major Michael Jordan (http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...997/Jordan.htm) jump to the part on the 1973 initiative under the Strategic Setting section (search for keyword "February 1973", third result).

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