Yum Kippur War

[GiladS]

IDF could not withstand the ceasefire land positions for a long time. By the mid of January ( Only 60 days after the war) , after the disengagement agreement, IDF retreated from the west of the Canal & from the front against the 2nd & 3rd Egyptian armies. It settlled in new lines which are located 35 KMS to the East of the Canal shores.

This is a strange perception of a victory since most of the territory that was captured by the IDF in 1967 still remained in Israeli hands.

This was done without any political agreements or gains.

The Seperation of Forces Agreement included a clause stating that the conflict between the two countries will only have a peaceful solution and that this agreement is a first step in that direction... and sure enough, some 4 years later Egypt became the first Arab country to sign a peace agreement with Israel.

Now when considering that for over 2 decades Egypt had stated that it would wipe Israel off the map and adopted the Khartoum Resolution following the Six Day War, well it seems to me that the Egyptian regime understood very well following this war that only through a peace agreement will the Sinai return to Egypt and that Israel is here to stay.

Thought to mention this fact while you chose to analyze the results of the war in the long term.

Also I guess the regime had to create a spin and market the results of the war as some sort of victory in order to strengthen its base and so that the general population would accept a peace agreement though Sadat's assassination showed that there were still people who were upset over this.

IDF 5th of Oct lines became under the Egyptian control by force only.

A strip of land some 10 km wide on the east bank of the Suez Canal which was continues due to the fact that Israel handed over territory as part of the Seperation of Forces Agreement... maybe to you it seems like a military victory but not to me.

[GiladS]

Out of curiosity (and not wishing to derail the thread) what, briefly, are the Israeli MPer's takes on the 1973 war? Was it as close-run an affair as most books that I've read depict it?

The Sinai Peninsula served as a very large buffer zone while the Egyptian crossing forces relied heavily on the AA cover provided SAM sites located on the Suez Canal.
The Golan Heights on the other hand were much less of a reliable buffer zone and there was real fear that Syrian armor would pour into the Galilee and beyond, that's why the IDF initially chose to concentrate most of its resources on the northern front.

So to an extent there was an existential threat...

[Kaplanr]

To cap off GiladS's synopsis; it also spelled the end of sacred cows - the myth of infallibility surrounding both the IDF and the defense establishment as a whole. It was the first time that the population across the spectrum demanded accountability, leading to Golda's resignation and ultimately the election of Menachem Begin in 1977 and the road to collapse of the Labour alignment later on.

[shelata]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strategic objectives of the Egyptian HQ was to secure a bridge-head east of the cannal 4 km deep and this wasn't completely achieved.

Wrong. The Egyptian army targets were as follows:-

1- Occupying the East Canal bank with a depth ranging from 10 to 15 Kms. This should not be exceeded to employ the protection of EAAM & avoid subjecting to IAF raids.
2- Implementing the heaviest possible man losses on IDF. Knowing ythe limited man resources for IDF, the effect of such losses would be crucial to the Israeli community.
3- Elongation of the War duration as much as possible. This would keep Israel main work force held in the war fronts. Such war would crumble the Israeli economy seriously.
4- Challenging the enforced No War/ No Peace status that was enjoyed by Israel & its allies.
The above targets were mostly fulfilled to a satisfactory degree.

The IDF not only penetrated the Egyptian bridge-head but it crossed the cannal and encircled the 2nd Army.

You mean it encircled the 3rd army. Yet, Israel accepted the ceasefire on the 22nd of Oct where its troops were 50 Kms from the main supply routes of the 3rd army. In violation to its ceasefire approval, IDF developed its offensive till it succeded in cutting the 3rd army supply routes on the 24th of Oct. IDF land gains past the 22nd were never accepted by Egypt or the Superpowers. During the past war 60 days negotiations, Israel had to choose between retreating to the 22nd ceasefire lines or risking the restore of the military operations by the refreshed Egyptian army. On the 18th of Jan, Israel choose to retreat from Canal west bank to lines located 35 Kms from the canal water lines.

[shelata]

A victory is neither glorious nor decisive when a country 1) loses more territory than it gains, 2) is forced to counter an invasion in its interior, 3) requires the intervention of its patron state, and 4) appeals to the UNSC for a ceasefire

You may reverse your statements to IDF & it would match ironically.
By the end of the Hostilites, IDF lines became at 35 kms away from its 5th of October lines. This would satisfy your first condition. Secondly, on the noon time of the 6th of Oct , IDF posts at Canal Sinai bank found themselves in the middle of 5 Egytptian divisions of 180,000 troops. Thirdly, Golda started screaming for US support from the War third day. Without the US air & sea lift of weapons, volanteers & amunition, IDF defeat would have been a crumbling disaster.
Fourthly, On the 12th of Oct, Israel asked UN for a ceasefire which was rejectd by Egypt. The 22nd ceasefire would have never been valid without both parties approvals.
If your conditions would point to the victorious side, then this would not be IDF.

[RoyB]

Technically Israel didn't lose an inch of its territory.

[Kutuz]

These Mirages came from Algeria right? Btw, do you know any battle record for this unit?

It's called squadron 69 from Libya not Algeria.
The squadron lost 2 mirages over Arish in 15 Oct, and one over deversoire in 21 Oct. That's what I know about them.

[Kutuz]

This is a strange perception of a victory since most of the territory that was captured by the IDF in 1967 still remained in Israeli hands.

Because Egypt's plan was to liberate a strip of land in Sinai, and negotiate for the rest, which was successfully achieved.

The Seperation of Forces Agreement included a clause stating that the conflict between the two countries will only have a peaceful solution and that this agreement is a first step in that direction... and sure enough, some 4 years later Egypt became the first Arab country to sign a peace agreement with Israel.

But that's what Sadat offered repeatedly in 71' and 73', and was rejected by the Israeli government.

Now when considering that for over 2 decades Egypt had stated that it would wipe Israel off the map

Urban legends, even your historians now deny this conspiracy theory.
Egypt agreed to recognise Israel in April 1949.

and adopted the Khartoum Resolution following the Six Day War,

And what's wrong with Khortoum? we stated that we will never regonize Israel, as long as our lands are occupied.

Egyptian regime understood very well following this war that only through a peace agreement will the Sinai return to Egypt and that Israel is here to stay.

Again Sadat offered peace many times before the war, but it seems that the Israeli regime realized after the war that it had no choice but to return Sinai and accept peace.

Also I guess the regime had to create a spin and market the results of the war as some sort of victory in order to strengthen its base and so that the general population would accept a peace agreement

Sadat didn't need to, he already offered peace before the war.
I will not repeat it again.
Read this.

A strip of land some 10 km wide on the east bank of the Suez Canal

It's 35 km wide..

Israel handed over territory as part of the Seperation of Forces Agreement

To avoid Operation Shamel.

[GB_FXST]

Wrong. The Egyptian army targets were as follows:-

1- Occupying the East Canal bank with a depth ranging from 10 to 15 Kms. This should not be exceeded to employ the protection of EAAM & avoid subjecting to IAF raids.
2- Implementing the heaviest possible man losses on IDF. Knowing ythe limited man resources for IDF, the effect of such losses would be crucial to the Israeli community.
3- Elongation of the War duration as much as possible. This would keep Israel main work force held in the war fronts. Such war would crumble the Israeli economy seriously.
4- Challenging the enforced No War/ No Peace status that was enjoyed by Israel & its allies.
The above targets were mostly fulfilled in to a satisfactory degree.

You mean it encircled the 3rd army. Yet, Israel accepted the ceasefire on the 22nd of Oct where its troops were 50 Kms from the main supply routes of the 3rd army. In violation to its ceasefire approval, IDF developed its offensive till it succeded in cutting the 3rd army supply routes on the 24th of Oct. IDF land gains past the 22nd were never accepted by Egypt or the Superpowers. During the past war 60 days negotiations, Israel had to choose between retreating to the 22nd ceasefire lines or risking the restore of the military operations by the refreshed Egyptian army. On the 18th of Jan, Israel choose to retreat from Canal west bank to lines located 35 Kms from the canal water lines.

Maybe the EAF goals were met, but at substantial cost, including but not limited to the IDF incursion on the West Bank.

There are a number of reasons that Israel pulled back from the canal, not least of which is US pressure. The US was of course interested adding Egypt to its sphere of influence.

At any rate, it is not a foregone conclusion that the EAF could have resumed hostilities, or would have been successful if they had done so. Egypt sought an end to hostilities as evident by the ceasefire.

As Gilad notes the war demonstrated to Sadat the futility of a future war as evident by the subsequent peace treaty.

[strategist]

These Mirages came from Algeria right? Btw, do you know any battle record for this unit?

Well, according to fighter pilot M. Z. Okasha (in the middle) It was Libya who offered to buy Mirage from France after Charles de Gaulle decision of weoapons embargo on Israel.

Egyptian pilots were devided into 2 groups, given fake Libian ID's and passports, the first group went to train in France, the second group was trained in Libia with supervision of franch and pakestani pilots.

In April 1973, Egyptian pilots returned on their new jets from Libia to Egypt, formed the 69th squadron, based in Tanta AFB

[shelata]

Technically Israel didn't lose an inch of its territory

Thanks to the Egyptian army 1973 war which led the Israeilies to define thier territories wrt the Egyptian territories . Prior to this war, Dayan & Begin said that Israel borders are located where IDF may reach.
Tell me RoyB, where are Israel borders with Jordan or Syria??

[strategist]

EAF Chief-of-Staff Saad Eldin El-shazli checking one of the fallen posts of Bar-Lev line 8 Oct. 1973:

[GiladS]

Because Egypt's plan was to liberate a strip of land in Sinai, and negotiate for the rest, which was successfully achieved.

Sadat had to negotiate with Israel and sign a peace agreeement before Egypt got the peninsula back. Something which went against 2 decades of Egyptian policies.

But that's what Sadat offered repeatedly in 71' and 73', and was rejected by the Israeli government.

I know all about the Jarring Mission, believe me.

Considering that Egypt refused to enter direct talks with Israel over this issue and that Israeli withdrawals were a pre-condition for any further peace talks, it isn't hard to understand why Israel didn't take Sadat's proposal seriously.

Urban legends, even your historians now deny this conspiracy theory.
Egypt agreed to recognise Israel in April 1949.

So why didn't it?

And what's wrong with Khortoum? we stated that we will never regonize Israel, as long as our lands are occupied.

The Khartoum resolution decalred that the Arab states would work to ensure the withdrawal of Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War with three guiding principles: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel.

So in fact Egyptian policy (by adopting this resolution) denied any land for peace deal with Israel... so please spare me the BS.

Again Sadat offered peace many times before the war, but it seems that the Israeli regime realized after the war that it had no choice but to return Sinai and accept peace.

The 1971 proposal which denied any sort of negotiations and an ensured land for peace deal could have hardly been taken seriously, it was a far cry from Sadat's visit to Jerusalem in 1977 and the Camp David Accords.

It's 35 km wide..

I was referring to the Seperation of Forces Agreement, not the Sinai Interim Agreement.

[Climber]

The discussion of who won the war is so pointless.......there are and will be revisionist always and everywhere.

[malioni91]

Well, according to fighter pilot M. Z. Okasha (in the middle) It was Libya who offered to buy Mirage from France after Charles de Gaulle decision of weoapons embargo on Israel.

Egyptian pilots were devided into 2 groups, given fake Libian ID's and passports, the first group went to train in France, the second group was trained in Libia with supervision of franch and pakestani pilots.

In April 1973, Egyptian pilots returned on their new jets from Libia to Egypt, formed the 69th squadron, based in Tanta AFB

Nice Pics! I've never seen them before. Btw, do u know if the Iraqis sent Hawker Hunters to join the Egyptians. And also from a friend of mine, I've heard that the Pakistanis sent pilots who flew Syrian Mig-21s in combat. Is this true?