Yum Kippur War

[strategist]

Nice Pics! I've never seen them before. Btw, do u know if the Iraqis sent Hawker Hunters to join the Egyptians. And also from a friend of mine, I've heard that the Pakistanis sent pilots who flew Syrian Mig-21s in combat. Is this true?

This is true, Pakistani instructor pilots were brought to train the Syrian pilots on MiG-21's, also, Egyptian pilots attended this training. The Pakistani teached the Egyptian pilots how to perform very low speed, low altitude manuevers that could be used to force the chasing plane to over-shoot the MiG-21, then the MiG-21 ,depending on its remarkable engine, could quickly gain speed and altitude to lock on the enemy aircraft.This tactic was then developed in Egypt and became a standard trick to be used in combat, causing many kills in actions over IDF aircrafts.

For the Iraqi Hawker Hunter, yes, they saw action on the Egyptian front, and they gained respect and admiration from infantry troops, due to its precise bombing capabilities in close air-support. Egyptian Chief-of-Staff said that he heard feedbacks from the young officers that they ask for the Hawker in name during many close air support situations.

and here are some pics:

[black mamba]

actually, the pakistani pilots played a side roll in the 1973 war in egypt. they were responsible for patrolling the airspace over Inshas airbase and none were involved in any air combat against israelis during that war.


Yom Kippur War - 1973
The PAF was active again in the Middle East sector after about 6 years. The PAF contingent deployed at Inchas Air Base (Egypt) was led by Wg.Cmdr. Masood Hatif and five other pilots plus two air defence controllers.

however, a pakistani pilot did get involved in air combat against an israeli reconaissance mission over syria in 1974 resulting in the loss of one israeli mirage:

Syria 1974
During this war, Flt.Lt Sattar Alvi was decorated by the Syrian goverment when he shot down an Israeli Mirage over Golan Heights. On 26 April, 1974, in an encounter over Golan Heights between a Mig-21 of the Syrian Air Force, flown by Flight Lieutenant Sattar Alvi, PAF, and two Israeli Mirages. An added feature of this engagement was that the Air Defence Controller, Sqn Ldr Saleem Metla was also a Pakistani. While leading a Mig-21 patrol along the border, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, also of the PAF was apprised of the presence of two Israeli Phantom aircraft and was cautioned that these could be decoys while two other fast tracks approaching from the opposite direction might be the real threat. The latter turned out to be Mirages and a moment later Alvi, in Arif’s formation saw the No 2 Mirage breaking towards him. All this time, heavy radio jamming by Israeli ground stations was making things difficult but the Pakistani pilots were used to such tactics. Sattar forced the Israeli pair into close combat, firing his K-13 missile at the first opportunity. The Israeli wingman’s Mirage exploded into a ball of fire, while the leader quickly disengaged.

the most direct significant pakistani contribution was in the 1967 war:

The Arab-Israel War - 1967
During this war, PAF sent a contingent of its pilots and airmen to Egypt, Jordan and Syria. PAF pilots performed excellently and downed about 10 Israeli planes including Mirages, Mysteres, Vautours without losing a single plane of their own. Flt.Lt. Saif-ul-Azam was decorated by Jordan and Iraq. The performance of PAF pilots was praised by Israelis too. Eizer Weizman, then Chief Of Israeli Air Force said once about Air Marshal Noor Khan (Commander PAF at that time): "...He is a formidable person and I am glad that he is Pakistani not Egyptian..." On 07 June 1967 Flight Lieutenant Saiful Azam, PAF, destroyed an Israeli Mirage in Iraq. In his second encounter with Israelis in the Middle East, he despatched one of the Mirages that were escorting the Israeli Vatour bombers. Moments later, he shot down one of the two escaping Vatour bombers. Two days earlier he had shot down an Israeli Super Mystere over Mafrak Air Base, Jordan. The officer was decorated with gallantry awards after the war both by Jordan and Iraq. He had already earned Sitara-i-Jurat during the 65 war when he shot down an Indian Gnat.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rce-combat.htm

however, i do not know where global security is getting the figure of 10 airplanes downed from. Pakistan Air Force's official website / records state Saif ul Azam as having shot down 3 israeli planes but does not credit any other pilot with any other kills.

so, the official PAF records show 4 kills (3 in '67 and 1 in '74)

[strategist]

Big salut for you Black Mamba, brand new information, this is the first time for me to know that PAF pilot were in Inshas AFB. by the way, Inshas AFB was very strategic as it was responsible for defending North Cairo, Abu Zaabal huge war industrial zone, and Egyptian Nuclear Reactor.

[black mamba]

hi strategist

thanks....however, i read up on the PAF role over Egypt and by the time the PAF pilots arrived, the ceasefire on the western front had been declared and hostilities on the syrian front petered out within a day or so. 8 pilots were sent to egypt and 8 to syria. one ambulance unit was also sent to each country.

[megaidler]

Hi shelata.

I suggest you not to refer on wikipedia for justify your arguments.
Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia.
Everyone who has access to the internet is allowed to make changes in wikipedia.
I was an active editor on the Yom Kippur War on wiki.
Now, once you know who is writing wikipedia, you won't be so willing to rely on it.

The wars with Israel caused an honor complex among many Egyptian intellectuals.
This obsession is expressed in strange phenomena like accusing Israel in bizarre conspiracies by the Egyptian press, and the willing of the Egyptian people to believe in these conspiracies.
LatmaTV has made a satire on this but in one thing Latma is mistaking.
The Egyptians don't try to repress the fact their army lost in 1973.
They really believe they won this war.
But beware of Latma.
It is a racist hawkish-Zionist website.
They oppose a land for peace deal with the Arabs and they accuse the Israeli media and bureaucracy for being defeatist, pro Arabic, anti religious and biased.
However, the actors, the producers and probably many of the writers are not religious themselves.
LatmaTV is shown only on the web, not on Israeli television.
There is an interview with the Egyptian Minister of Conspiracy Halil Majnoun here with English subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To4AM7yyGqM
I think it's funny.

[ZZEZ]

Any more pictures of the Hawker Hunters?its probably one of the prettiest airplanes ever alongside the U2.

[Kutuz]

Sadat had to negotiate with Israel and sign a peace agreement before Egypt got the peninsula back.

Because Egypt's plan was to liberate a strip of land in Sinai, and negotiate for the rest, which was successfully achieved.

Something which went against 2 decades of Egyptian policies.

"The most important diplomatic initiative during this period was Sadat's proposal for a comprehensive settlement of the Egyptian–Israeli dispute, which was secretly submitted to Kissinger in February 1973. Despite the fact that it met most of Israel's requirements regarding peace, Sadat's proposal was rejected by Golda Meir, who refused to return the territories occupied in 1967. Meir's stand did not change even when, in April 1973, Israel's leadership concluded that the only alternative to the diplomatic process was war — which would break out soon. By making this decision, Golda Meir and her colleagues opted for war rather than peace and turned the October 1973 Yom Kippur War into ‘a war of choice’."
Last Chance to Avoid War: Sadat's Peace Initiative of February 1973 and its Failure by Uri Bar

Sadat offered peace many times before the war.
Read this post carefully again.

Considering that Egypt refused to enter direct talks with Israel over this issue

Sadat accepted direct peace negotiations in Feb 1973.

that Israeli withdrawals were a pre-condition for any further peace talks

But after the war, and before any peace negotiations took place, Israel even withdrawn from more territories than what Sadat asked in 1971.
Something that they rejected before the war.

So why didn't it?

The Israeli historian Simha Flapan said in The birth of Israel, that Arabs agreed to sign a peace treaty at Lausanne April 1949, but Israel preferred 'tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace treaty'. Ilan Pappe also supported him in the The Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict, 1947-1951.
Need more sources?

The 1971 proposal which denied any sort of negotiations and an ensured land for peace deal could have hardly been taken seriously, it was a far cry from Sadat's visit to Jerusalem in 1977 and the Camp David Accords.

Please, read this post for god's sake.
Sadat proposed in 1971 an Israeli withdrawal from the Bar-Lev line, limited Egyptian force on the east bank of Suez, UN buffer zone, and followed by 6 months of negotiations for the rest of Sinai.

So in fact Egyptian policy (by adopting this resolution) denied any land for peace deal with Israel... so please spare me the BS.

By adopting Khartoum's resolution, Arabs accepted the UN resolution 242, while Israel rejected it.

I was referring to the Separation of Forces Agreement, not the Sinai Interim Agreement.

They are two different names for the same agreement.

[Kaplanr]

So are you saying Nasser gets a pass for demanding the withdrawal of UNEF, and closing the Straits of Tiran - a de facto act of war? That's not to mention specific quotes that leave Egypt's intentions pretty clear.

May 16, 1967
"The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel." - Cairo Radio

May 17, 1967
“All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel” - Cairo Radio

May 18, 1967
“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed. Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope – to live to see the day Israel is liquidated…There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”

“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel….The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence”. - Cairo Radio’s Voice of the Arabs broadcast

May 22, 1967
“The Israeli flag shall not go through the Gulf of Aqaba. Our sovereignty over the entrance to the Gulf cannot be disputed” - Egypt’s President Nasser

"We want a full scale, popular war of liberation… to destroy the Zionist enemy" - Syrian president Dr. Nureddin al-Attasi speech to troops

May 36, 1967
"Taking over Sharm el Sheikh meant confrontation with Israel (and) also meant that we were ready to enter a general war with Israel. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel” - Gamal Abdel Nasser speech to the General Council of the International Confederation of Arab Trade Unions

May 30, 1967
"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations." - Gamal Abdel Nasser speech

. . .
In 1967, Israel launched the 6 day war which resulted in 6 years of military confrontations & severe detruction within the Egyptian cities & community.

[malioni91]

In 1963, Mossad sent exploding letters to German & Egyptian engineers who were developing the Egyptian industry. [/FONT]
In 1967, Israel launched the 6 day war which resulted in 6 years of military confrontations & severe detruction within the Egyptian cities & community. More than 100,000 Egyptian lives werelost through the wars against Israel.


If knowledgable Israelies are admitting that the war was a disaster for Israel why the Egyptians should repress the opposite??

]

First of all, the German and Egyptian engineers weren't developing the industry, but designing ballistic missiles and WMD for Egypt (the German engineers had worked for the Nazi weapons program during the war).
Second, the Israelis say that it was a catastrophe because of the high number of casualties (which were less than those of the Arabs. which means that also for u, this war was a disaster).

Just kleeping the facts straight.

[Hollis]

I am locking this thread for a while, then I am going back and remove some posts. It has been asked a number of times to keep the political **** measuring out of the thread. It has just gotten worse.

I am sorry that Egyptian members want to keep chanting they won. Western Historians say other wise. Probably in the long run Egypt did seize a victory out of defeat, but that was after the war was over.

[Hollis]

OK, it is unlock, let's try to stay on topic. Good people on both sides died, at least out of respect for them, keep it civil.

[AirZone]

I am locking this thread for a while, then I am going back and remove some posts. It has been asked a number of times to keep the political **** measuring out of the thread. It has just gotten worse.

I am sorry that Egyptian members want to keep chanting they won. Western Historians say other wise. Probably in the long run Egypt did seize a victory out of defeat, but that was after the war was over.

You summed it pretty well.

[tanks_alot]

These are the personal pictures from the war of Shmulevich Asher, a reservist who was attached upon being recruited to the artillery corps 873 battlion, who operated 130mm lotted guns. he served on the Syrian front.

The officer standing in the back, with the hat - Yitzhk Marok, was killed during the war.

The soldier with the sun glasses, medic Haim Mor, was also killed.

The ruins of Koneitra

A hit by a Syrian shell. the Syrians directed accurate artillery fire from the mount Hermon, causing a direct hit on a Halftrack, killing on the spot the officer and medic shown in previous pictures and wounding 4 more soldiers

A helicopter attempted to evecuate the wounded, but the fire was too heavy, so they were evecuated in a jeep

After the Halftrack was hit, the battalion recieved an M113

Destroyed Syrian Sagger BRDM

Cluster munition

Building a "club"

Celebrating Hanuka at the club - the photographer Shmulevich Asher completly drunk.

"Shkori" making coffee, apparently he's the only soldier in the IDF who caught Scabies during the war.

A 130mm shell and casing

An improvised monument built in honor of the battalion's fallen.

[malioni91]

^ Great pics! Thanks for posting them.

Btw, what's the name of the guns operated by this unit. I understood that they've been captured from the Syrians which makes them Soviet-made, but do u know the name?

[greendzflash]

/\/\ awesome personal photos, thanks for sharing