Waffen SS troops

[East Scout II]

LOL the guy pointing looks like "The Shermanator" from American Pie

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

AIRBORNEJOCK,

I'll make it simplier for you:

What were the Waffen-SS fighting for?

And don't start with the 'raping' argument, which was mostly done by second line troops seeking for revenge, after Germans troops burned their village, raped their wifes and killed their children.

you cant tar them all with the same brush,there were obviously a massive percent nazis,but what about the ones who wanted to join the what would have been the special forces of that era,and the ones who joined pure and simply to fight communists.
there are probably a few people who think im a nazi,im not by no stretch of the imagination but being intrested in military history but like them or not the waffen ss are a big part of it.and credit where its due they seen some hardcore action.

[PeterG]

Or Steel Inferno, which describes the fighting history of the 1ss and 12ss divs during Normandy.

The Waffen SS was the foreign legion for the germans. Except some of its famous divs, like the 1st ss, 2nd ss , the infamous 3rd ss (no prisoners from this unit were taken in the Eastern front, and most came from the totemkoft branch that guarded the concentration camps), the 5thss, 9th ss, 10th ss, 12thss, 17th ss, are all regarded as elite units. Of course due to the fact of being political (ie nazi) soldiers makes them both more fanatical and more brutal, and had a much higher number of both incidents and war crimes. But they also had very good soldiers, like M. Wittmann.

The 3rd was definately also an elite unit - infamous or not. It fought with distinction in the Demyansk pocket, at kharkov, kursk, etc. It was in the thick of it on the eastern front for years, and was clearly one of the best divisions the germans had. Read the book 'soldiers of destruction' for the history of this division. And no - it does not defend or apologize crimes comitted by men of the division, it is not an apologist book. But it was still an 'elite' unit in the military sense of the word.
amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/069...lance&n=283155

[Big Lebowski]

some pics of SS Polizei-Division 1941




tired mortar crew




officer of polizei division


russian prisoner


Taking more prisoners


...



thx to Ivanwss from the axishistory forums for all the nice pics

[East Scout II]

@ Big Lobowski...Good pics..Thanks!

[Huhtis]

Please stop the friggen politics because there is people who like to
see the pics.

So heres my contribute:













Pics are from Osprey`s Men at arms-series Waffen-SS 1. to 5. divisions-book

[Kitsune]

While they were usually the best supplied and best fed they were remarkably mediocre as soldiers.

There were 38 Waffen SS Divisions. And by no means all were extraordinary fighting outfits. Because of the lack of homogenity one cannot say that the Waffen SS as a whole constituted an elite fighting force. Another myth is that they recieved weapons before other units. This is simply not true.

However, some of the Waffen SS outfits (some started out as Regiments and were later turned into Divisions), notably the 1st ("Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler"), the 2nd ("Das Reich"), the 3rd ("Totenkopf") and the 5th ("Wiking") can be rightfully regarded as elite formations. All of these have a battle-record that is simply amazing and outstrips that of any Allied Division. One has to give it to the Nazis that they did not pamper their dearest and send them where the fight was hottest. Especially these mentioned Waffen SS units showed a determination, fighting effectiveness and resilience that cannot be denied (and is by no means "mediocre").

As far as their gear is concerned all of the elite Waffen SS Divisions were well equipped. But once again it is not true that they, or even the 1st Waffen SS Division (who was wearing the Adolf's name in their banner and regarded itself as an elite within the elite) would get the newest stuff before any unit of the normal German military got it. Elite Wehrmacht formations like the Divisions "Grossdeutschland" or "Panzer Lehr" (especially that one) received the best and newest equipment BEFORE any Waffen SS Division.

All of the Waffen SS Divisions mentioned above have been charged with warcrimes, except for "Wiking". (However, since some historians could not believe that an SS outfit without warcrimes is possible, some digging was done. And finally a diary of a Wiking soldier was uncovered that suggessts that even the "Wiking" Division partook in warcrimes. There you have it.)
For example, the Leibstandarte was responsible for the so called Malmedy massacre. "Das Reich" for the destruction of Oradour. "Totenkopf" is especially doubtful since this unit kept contact with the SS "Totenkopf" units whose task was to guard the concentration camps. And so forth.

But once again any notion that these men were completely different in their behaviour than others, being on a constant killing spree and massacring every civilian they could find is simply not true. (And not even the Western Allies authorities on their de-nazification crusade have claimed that, although they weren't exactly timid or otherwise too much inhibited by truth or justice). It has to be admitted that the claim that they wold "have been soldiers just like any others" can be reasoned against. But there are also some things that speak for it.
How ever one may see it, in the end they were human beings, like it or not. Not even the accusation that they were selected for especially criminal or sadistic types of character is true (actually, on the contrary: if you had a criminal record you weren't allowed to serve in those mentioned outfits). They were chosen according to NS racial ideals however and meant to be an racial elite as the Nazi leadership understood that term (hence the demanded minimum size, Waffen SS soldiers, especially those of the LSAH had to be tall guys). It was also tried to motivate them along the sides of the pseudo Germanic mythos the Nazis liked to spread with an high emphazising of loyality.
But when it comes down ot it, their training was not completely unlike that of other units and the weaknesses and strengths they displayed were often all too human as well.


A few links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibsta...S_Adolf_Hitler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Divi...ised%29_Wiking

Why don't proud Germans take care of their war dead like other countries? Arent there any Germans proud of all that their country accomplished in World War II? Or is it all just anonymous talk?

It is true that for Germans the feeling of shame overshadows the (often amazing) accomplishments of their armed forces in WWII. This has been deliberatly furthered and enhanced by the victorious nations on all sides. It has become next to impossible to discuss their achievements on the battlefield without some a-hole popping up and demanding that the "astrocities and warcrimes have to be mentioned and discussed as well". An aspect that is usually left out altogether when the exploits of Allied troops are discussed. (Even western Allied troops weren't exactly timid and did commit their share of warcrimes, that goes for Americans, British, French and Polish troops as for many others. As far as the Soviets are concerned, their cruelty is often simply staggering. And none of these nations have ever made amends or have even tried to punish the guilty. With good reason. In the end someone could get the idea to term many Allied generals or even leaders of state like Roosevelt and Churchill as "warcriminals" and we don't want that to happen, do we?)

By and large, German graves are well tended. But through all this post-war conditioning Germans have somewhat lost this ability of selective thinking that the members of Allied nations have mastered so well and which allows them to see every soldier fighting for their side as a hero just because he was wearing a uniform at the time...and to just ignore the rest. We simply cannot see our soldiers the same way (although they were not worse humans than the others, this I do claim). This goes especially for the soldiers of the Waffen SS: too many people cannot help but to regard them as criminals and butchers without even knowing anything of that organisation. Myths abound, in which they appear as soulless monsters or supreme fighting machines that cause a shudder running down ones spine. The question how these ominous "Nazis" have managed such an extraordinary feat to turn whole divisions of men into combat androids devoid of any human feelings is not even posed. Its not even about the question wether the NS leadership would have liked that, it is simply that they could not have done it wether they wanted or not. Only if you study the matter en detail one starts to understand that.



Regards,

Kitsune

[Groove]

Once there was a documentary about Waffen-SS in german television. They asked some Waffen-SS vets and some Wehrmacht vets about the 2nd ww. The Wehrmacht guys hated the Waffen-SS soldiers because they were brutal and they made no prisoners. Besides this they were all nazi brain washed.

Btw dont try to distract with such things like " ... what they did at the end of the war..." Ask what they did in the beginng...

They arent normal soldiers.

[Big Lebowski]

nice post kitsune and nice pics huhtis! never seen those in high res. thx

yes groove some where "murders" but not all. take wiking division for example or friekorps denmark.
the majorty where not nazis but fought against bolshevism

and that was a factor in most forgien ss divisions

stop deneing history and live with it.

[East Scout II]

Mods Please Stop The Political Bs..there Is A Section For This Is There Not??

[Groove]

im wont post anymore on this topic but calling it political bull**** have a strange taste... especially having a nick like brandenburger.

[He219]

im wont post anymore on this topic but calling it political bull**** have a strange taste... especially having a nick like brandenburger.

Weren't they part of the Abwehr?
Those weren't ze Evil Germans; remember Admiral Canaris and The Eagle Has Landed?


Back on track though, ban hammer is warming up!

[East Scout II]

Weren't they part of the Abwehr?
Those were the good guys, remember Admiral Canaris and The Eagle Has Landed?


Back on track though, ban hammer is warming up!

Yes they were...Mostly chosen from Slovic or other tribes considered "untermanchen" by Reich standards but this would allow them to blend easier in certain areas where they would be deployed. Both visulay and with language...They did everyting from Para-borne operation. Mountain operation, Kommando raids to operations that were a kin to modern KSK situations..Name it they did it..Their symbol was a question mark infront of a shield as one just never knew who was a Brandenburg Kommando or where they woudl strike..Many Jopinedthe SS to help in the Ardenne offensive and were in Skorzanies Para units that dressed as US soldiers

SAS recruited many of them after the war to help kick start post war operations to counter the soviet threat.......

Only problem i see with them is there werent enough pictures taken of their operations and training..(there were some) No Im left to my imagination..

[Big Lebowski]

pics of SS Totenkopf-Division 1941


marching through russia


marching through russia. totenkopf soldiers on their krupp






ss pak crew (pak36)

[East Scout II]

Sorry i had to use this pic for my avatar..The sarcasum of his grin donates to the hopelessness of his situation...........Ill take it down if you wish