Shotguns

[ZaakM433]

I think claymores and AT mines with modified fuses do best for most home defenses. You can set them up before you go to sleep each night and you dont have to worry about any intruders, or your cat/dog. It might seem a little inconvenient but its not that bad, just dont do it while you are groggy before your morning cup of coffee/coke/tea/blood (for the goths).

[Hydro]

Shotgun round through human heart is not one stop hit, but the person can still act for 7-10 seconds after that. It's a looooong time at close range!

You've always got the second option: FFF - Fire til the F*cker Falls!

[ZaakM433]

You've always got the second option: FFF - Fire til the F*cker Falls!

Also known as the Three Fs, 3F, F3, F³, FTTFF, or spray and spray.

[aclark79]

I love my remington 870. Only additions are a surefire forend, sidesadle and a knoxx recoil reducing stock. I have a one point sling that I love, much better than a 3 point for what I'm doing. (IE I'm not guarding anything and I'm not humping through downtown Iraq) A number of guys at my last job made fun of me for adding a recoil reducing stock, but I say use whatever you can, its not like there is a rule book you have to follow in real life. Why should I punish myself when at the range and why shouldn't I give myself every advantage.

For the record I use slugs and 00, low recoil rounds. Slugs on the side saddle





(old stains on an old carrying case)



crappy quality picture, but it gives you an idea of where the gun hangs with a sling. Works great.


Ok as far as lights go, here is my apartment with only the alarm light and the light from the computer speakers and microwave:



Now same thing with surefire



And what the other person would see, its even more powerfull than this picture shows, as I was blinded by the reflection and actually couldn't tell if I was looking at the center of the light.






Why not right?

[11B101ABN]

Here's the skinny:

1) A light is an absolute necessity on a long gun. Proper target ID is also an absolute. The light shold be used in a 'trobing type of fashion, use it sparingly in a steady burn.

2) Mixing ammo in the mag is a no no. I use 00 reduced recoil ammo and if I need to select a specialized munition, I can perform a selction drill. Train, train, train. There ARE liability issues in regards to using the appropriate ammo for the threat that is before you.

3) Kinetic energy munitions (bean bags) are a specialty round and are NOT appropriate for a deadly force encounter. deployment of the "bags" should only be undertaken when you have somone with a lethal force option at the ready.

4) In my experience, single point slings on shot guns( full length) is pointless. A shotgun is front heavy and difficult to mange without a good 2 or 3 point sling. A traditional 2 or 3 point also offers the added benefit of platform stabilization. transitions are often hindered by single point slings due to the swinging of the barrel or the barrel slamming on the ground if you assume a kneeling position.

5) Aimpoints and Eotechs absolutely have a place on a shotgun. Ultimately it boils down to faster target aquisition and higher hit probability.

6) When you use a side saddle, try to go "brass down' as this will allow you to remain oriented toward the threat and will not cause your non- firing hand to obstruct your sight picture. It will also allow for economy of movement during reloads/ selection drills.

The above is based on my 13 years of military experience and 11 years of law enforcement experience and training, take it for what it's worth.

Later.

[Geezah]

my personal preference for hd is a short assault rifle with a silencer. failing that i'll grab an 870.

I would love to use one of my "ASSault Weapons" but the "anything black brigade is evil" would have a field day with it. That's why I only have the shotgun out, less fuel for the media fire

[Geezah]

Here's the skinny:

1) A light is an absolute necessity on a long gun. Proper target ID is also an absolute. The light shold be used in a 'trobing type of fashion, use it sparingly in a steady burn.

2) Mixing ammo in the mag is a no no. I use 00 reduced recoil ammo and if I need to select a specialized munition, I can perform a selction drill. Train, train, train. There ARE liability issues in regards to using the appropriate ammo for the threat that is before you.

3) Kinetic energy munitions (bean bags) are a specialty round and are NOT appropriate for a deadly force encounter. deployment of the "bags" should only be undertaken when you have somone with a lethal force option at the ready.

4) In my experience, single point slings on shot guns( full length) is pointless. A shotgun is front heavy and difficult to mange without a good 2 or 3 point sling. A traditional 2 or 3 point also offers the added benefit of platform stabilization. transitions are often hindered by single point slings due to the swinging of the barrel or the barrel slamming on the ground if you assume a kneeling position.

5) Aimpoints and Eotechs absolutely have a place on a shotgun. Ultimately it boils down to faster target aquisition and higher hit probability.

6) When you use a side saddle, try to go "brass down' as this will allow you to remain oriented toward the threat and will not cause your non- firing hand to obstruct your sight picture. It will also allow for economy of movement during reloads/ selection drills.

The above is based on my 13 years of military experience and 11 years of law enforcement experience and training, take it for what it's worth.

Later.

Cool Post, thanks

[Durandal]

my personal preference for hd is a short assault rifle with a silencer. failing that i'll grab an 870.

Just curious...

Which gun?

Which manufacture for the silencer and how much trouble did you get local leo signing off on the form 4?

[Durandal]

Here's the skinny:

1) A light is an absolute necessity on a long gun. Proper target ID is also an absolute. The light shold be used in a 'trobing type of fashion, use it sparingly in a steady burn.

2) Mixing ammo in the mag is a no no. I use 00 reduced recoil ammo and if I need to select a specialized munition, I can perform a selction drill. Train, train, train. There ARE liability issues in regards to using the appropriate ammo for the threat that is before you.

3) Kinetic energy munitions (bean bags) are a specialty round and are NOT appropriate for a deadly force encounter. deployment of the "bags" should only be undertaken when you have somone with a lethal force option at the ready.

4) In my experience, single point slings on shot guns( full length) is pointless. A shotgun is front heavy and difficult to mange without a good 2 or 3 point sling. A traditional 2 or 3 point also offers the added benefit of platform stabilization. transitions are often hindered by single point slings due to the swinging of the barrel or the barrel slamming on the ground if you assume a kneeling position.

5) Aimpoints and Eotechs absolutely have a place on a shotgun. Ultimately it boils down to faster target aquisition and higher hit probability.

6) When you use a side saddle, try to go "brass down' as this will allow you to remain oriented toward the threat and will not cause your non- firing hand to obstruct your sight picture. It will also allow for economy of movement during reloads/ selection drills.

The above is based on my 13 years of military experience and 11 years of law enforcement experience and training, take it for what it's worth.

Later.

Fantastic post...

Speaking with no law enforcement experience I disagree with the flashlight and reflex site. Only because training overcomes the need for both of them. There is almost no need at all for a reflex site shooting at a target that is less than 7m away. You shoot enough rounds and you know where the where the shot will fall.

The flashlight has its merits for certain and I am not trying, in anyway to understate its value, but its a fancy tool with batteries. Anyone who plans on using the shotgun for home defense, should be able to do it with the just the gun AND a loaded tube and nothing else. The same principle applies to the aimpoint/eotech.

So, there is my disagreement, I hope, logically put.

[11B101ABN]

Fantastic post...

Speaking with no law enforcement experience I disagree with the flashlight and reflex site. Only because training overcomes the need for both of them. There is almost no need at all for a reflex site shooting at a target that is less than 7m away. You shoot enough rounds and you know where the where the shot will fall.

The flashlight has its merits for certain and I am not trying, in anyway to understate its value, but its a fancy tool with batteries. Anyone who plans on using the shotgun for home defense, should be able to do it with the just the gun AND a loaded tube and nothing else. The same principle applies to the aimpoint/eotech.

So, there is my disagreement, I hope, logically put.

I can get with you on the reflex sight.

I heartily disagree with you on the necessity of the flashlight. Wtih the understanding that this is a HD gun, I can think of no more compelling reason to have a light. Target ID. The absolute need for knowing what you are shooting at and/or what is making that "bump in the night".
Training will have no impact on the need to know what/ who you are confronting.

[Sabre]

Well, should my alarm and locks not deter a would be 'home invader', I have with me at all times my twin pump action MkI fists with topmounted forehead!

[Hollis]

I can get with you on the reflex sight.

I heartily disagree with you on the necessity of the flashlight. Wtih the understanding that this is a HD gun, I can think of no more compelling reason to have a light. Target ID. The absolute need for knowing what you are shooting at and/or what is making that "bump in the night".
Training will have no impact on the need to know what/ who you are confronting.

I don't need a flashlight in my house, If I was a duty officer I agree with you. Your in unknown areas a lot. I know my house and it has sufficient lighting from the numberous electric clocks, on stove, micro wave, stereo, TVs etc. I also know what my famly members look like. (yep sound stupid, but in a LEO situation, until interviewed who is who is not always known)

Also I stack my loads for a reason, As A LEO we used #5's at the time only(believed to be the best compromise of pattern and effectiveness), Also LEO does not have choices outside the policies of the department.

I never run into any thing.

Also, besides, I have other options if the need arises.

[Geezah]

Well, should my alarm and locks not deter a would be 'home invader', I have with me at all times my twin pump action MkI fists with topmounted forehead!

I knew a guy that locks and alarms would do little to deter

[Hollis]

I knew a guy that locks and alarms would do little to deter,)

I read somewhere, that signs of having a alarm, whether you do or don't isn't the issue, has some deterrent of "casing" a place out.

One of our best alarms is the "DOG" alarm. Our Llama did OK, until a cougar got him.

Part of the problem we all live in different kinds of places, then add to the that the uniqueness of our individualities there is no one solution or way or mythology. We can also add to that the randomness in which the bad guy may "come at us". The bad buy could be a kid, junkie, predator, etc. Some burglars have been know to walk up to a house, knock if no answer try the door knob if unlocked entered, if locked try another house. Most burglars do not want anyone home. The "cat burglar" is often the most dangerous. Some will sneak in, steal and leave with out disturbing anyone, some will not.

There is no one way or situation that is a constant in a HD scenario. One fact is known burglars will avoid areas where citizens are known to actively participate in their own personal defense. If you live among sheeple, expect being visited by the wolves.

[Durandal]

I can get with you on the reflex sight.

Honestly, I come from a family of trap and skeet shooters, though, admittedly I never took it up myself at any serious level. Shotguns are like pistols a good shooter never actually uses the sights (regardless of the type of sights) unless you are hunting or target shooting (which I do). My Ghost ring sights do just fine for that.

The reflex sights are good for what they are, there is no denying that, its just the way I was taught...good shooters use iron sights anything over 300 yards gets a scope. Thats not to say that I do not approve of reflex sights or scopes. I own and use both.

I heartily disagree with you on the necessity of the flashlight. Wtih the understanding that this is a HD gun, I can think of no more compelling reason to have a light. Target ID. The absolute need for knowing what you are shooting at and/or what is making that "bump in the night".
Training will have no impact on the need to know what/ who you are confronting.

I think, much like the reflex sight, this is a matter of environment and personal attitude more than anything. I am not a trigger happy guy or some noob that thinks a semi-automatic rifle with a silencer is the best HD weapon. If someone was in our home its an intruder, my fiancee and dog sleep in the same room with me at night. Waking with no light and I have excellent night vision. If I used the flashlight once I would need to keep it on since my eyes do not readjust as quickly as some. I am not night blind or anything but damn if a single light doesn't screw up my vision. I also live in the city with lots of ambient light. I.D.ing someone would be no problem.

It might be different if I had a child right this moment or a bigger home.

I think a lot of it has to do with a person's awareness of their surroundings, the familiarity with those that live in the home with them and how comfortable they are with defending those people and themselves.

I am not saying that a flashlight does not have its value, but I will argue that it is not a necessity for everyone.

I hope that makes sense...I'm enjoying this conversation.