View Poll Results: What's your favorite weapon series?

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  • M16 family

    69 43.67%
  • MP5 family

    10 6.33%
  • G36 family

    31 19.62%
  • M249 family

    4 2.53%
  • AK family

    44 27.85%
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Thread: What's your favorite weapon?

  1. #181
    Moderator James's Avatar
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    No comment - simply seeing how many pages we can push this to...

  2. #182
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    "Certainly, it is the rifle round. "Ordinary" or not, doesn't matter. Tell me what is the criterion for division? Case length? Muzzle velocity? Muzzle energy?"

    Intended role. It is to bridge the gap between 800m and 1200m where the .308 lacks range and power, but 50 cal rifles are too big/expensive/powerful for the role.

    "Nice try, GazB, to compare weight battle rifles without optical sights to assault rifle with them. I show You the L85A1 weight without SUSAT with iron sights. So, add about 0,5kg (optical sight) to all battle rifles weight and than once again try to compare weight. "

    I included the weight of the scope for waepons that carry scopes as standard. Hence the SA-80 and the SVD weights include scopes.

    "That was the first assault rifle. Compare the first SMG weight to modern ones. "

    So we then establish weight as being immaterial in the definition then?

    "Nope. Take a look at 12,7mm (.50) HMG also may be used as infantry fire support weapon on wheeled mount or as vehicle weapon mounted in turrets (e.g. HMMWV, M113). Also used in single or double AA mounts. So, Browning is also automatic cannon? The cannon vs. machine guns calibre limit is 20mm not "over 12,7mm". And that's not "my" opinion, they are HMGs by definition - open JANE's Infantry Weapons and check - 14,5mm KPV and 15mm FN MILO are considered as HMGs. "

    As I have mentioned the division is defined as shell projectiles. In the past that meant 20mm. Now such a definition could include HMGs through the improvements in power in HE charges and design of shells.

    "As I said 20mm is upper limit for rifle ammo, so some of 20mm round are (or may be) and some aren't rifle cartridges. "

    So you can't talk about a Rifle or Cannon "calibre" if that calibre can be the same. (ie .308 is a rifle calibre, but if 20mm is both a rifle calibre and a cannon calibre then it is neither and both.)

    "You're right. My fault, sorry."

    No need to appologise, from your location I am guessing English is not your first language. With this in mind misunderstandings are natural, though your English is excellent BTW.

    "This kind of shotguns have their own name - "slugsters". "

    An American term... though you will notice my term is more accurate in that it is obvious that the weapon is a rifled weapon. I have a smoothbore shotgun with a cylinder bore (ie no choke) which I use to fire Slugs and could call it a slugster too. (it has rifle type sights especially for firing slugs).

    "...also 20mm Croatian RT-20 and 20mm Finnish APH-20."

    Would be interested in hearing more about them if you have any links...

  3. #183
    hell on hookers ibstolidude's Avatar
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    AA's Beowulf:




    Jesus, that .50 looks so HUGE sitting by a .223/5.56.

    just for fun....
    or engine blocks

    All good shooters shoot to the man goes down for good, I guess some wish to shoot less then others.

  4. #184
    Senior Member REMOV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GazB
    Intended role.
    The same answer over and over again, huh?
    It is to bridge the gap between 800m and 1200m where the .308 lacks range and power, but 50 cal rifles are too big/expensive/powerful for the role.
    Right, but a new name for such round in my opinion is unnecessary.
    I included the weight of the scope for waepons that carry scopes as standard. Hence the SA-80 and the SVD weights include scopes.
    The L85Ax has no such thing as standard version, both versions with and without SUSAT are in British Army service. Royal Marines or Royal Engineers uses L85A2 with iron scope. Check the photos. Naturally there are rifles with standard scopes e.g. Steyr AUG, but L85A2 it is not such weapon. So, compare weight of all weapons - both assault and battle rifles with scopes (or without).

    So we then establish weight as being immaterial in the definition then?
    Of course, not. Weight is material thing, but it isn't most importatnt.
    As I have mentioned the division is defined as shell projectiles.
    The most important thing is the calibre. If you produces 7,62mm HE round (it isn't impossible), then it be automatically change into cannon round?
    So you can't talk about a Rifle or Cannon "calibre" if that calibre can be the same.
    As you wrote limits sometimes are blurred.
    (ie .308 is a rifle calibre, but if 20mm is both a rifle calibre and a cannon calibre then it is neither and both.)
    If - as you said - cannon round definition is based only on shells (i.e. are HE or not) than 20mm AP ammunition (only this type produces) uses in AMR will be rifle round or not? We come back to old WWII era AT rifles...
    An American term...
    They lives with their guns, so they have many terms the rest of the world haven't
    Would be interested in hearing more about them if you have any links...
    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn56-e.htm
    The RT20 was developed primarily to penetrate the armored casing around the thermal sight head on M84 tanks (a 20-mm round was the smallest caliber that could penetrate the casing). During the war in the former Yugoslavia, M84s were frequently deployed to detect Croatian infantry moving at night, so a method of removing their nightvision capability was found with this RT20 “hand cannon”.

  5. #185
    Krachslhuaba He219's Avatar
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    REMOV, your Automatic Cannon classification is hasty and inaccurate. You may have exceptional weapons referencing skills, but here are some facts on Automatic Cannon Calibers.

    The KPV-14.5 and BRG-15 are indeed Machine Guns. They could also be used as small caliber Automatic Cannons because of a capability to fire High Explosive Munitions. The KPV fires a 14.5-mm API, I-T or HE-T Type MDZ. The BRG was changed from a 15mm round to a cannon-like ammo with plastic 'driving bands', the 15.5x106mm round. The BRG was never fielded and was marketed as fitting a role between the 20mm Cannon and the 12.7mm MG. 15.5x106mm BRG ammo is even rarer to research but I assume it to be practically feasible that HE rounds would be employed had it gone into production. THE BRG is unique in that it has belt-feed from both the right and left side to allow selection of specific ammuniton types, plus a single-shot selector for use with special ammo. So what defines the Caliber size to be an Automatic Cannon?


    The powerful 14.5 mm KPVT automatic tank gun fires Cartridges with armour-piercing-incendiary B-32 bullets, armor-piercing-tracer BZT bullets and MDZ incendiary bullets 'of instant action' for surface and air targets. http://www.zid.ru/en/products/military/kpvt.html


    ZPU-4 AAA http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/zpu-4.htm
    How did this get from MG to Artillery?


    Let's back up a bit to where I left off...


    Oh Yeah? What about the Oerlikon MG FF/M, not a Cannon?

    [*******darkred]Naturally, it is a cannon. Don't blame on me, the Germans themselfs called MG151 (both 15mm and 20mm, becouse both weapons were nearly the same, only difference was a calibre) machineguns not cannons[/color].

    You really don't think these are Aircraft Cannons but rather Heavy Mg's?

    [*******darkred]Of course, not - they are over 20mm calibre! But 20mm MG151 according to the German sources was a HMG. [/color]

    REMOV, you did agree that the Oerlikon MG FF/M, is a cannon. It fired a 20x80RB as did the following German Guns:

    MG c/30L 20 x 138B
    MG-FF 20 x 80RB
    MG-FF/M 20 x 80RB
    MG 151/20 20 x 82
    MG 213C/20 20 x 135

    If both the Oerlikon MG and the MG 151 fire an explosive 20mm round, how would the the MG 151 not be considered a Cannon? The reference you listed focuses on the 15mm MG 151 and is a poor justification for both your rationale and as a 'German' source that the MG 151 is only a Machine Gun and not a Cannon. The integration of large caliber HE munitions defines Machine Guns as Automatic Cannons. Certainly the 20 mm MG qualifies as a Cannon.

    Note that the Oerlikon is also classified as an MG. You yourself stated that [*******darkred]'Naturally, it is a Cannon'[/color].

    Lets look at the explosive munitions that actually classify the MG 151/20 and other Cannons. High Explosive rounds were traditionally made by boring out the core of a solid projectile and filling it with explosive. The German [*******blue]Minengeschoß [/color]introduced a thin shell munufacturing technique. This resulted in a much larger explosive capacity for the same caliber and became widespread after the war.

    The following information is from 'Merkbuch über die Munition' Berlin, 1944.

    From left: MG 131 AP, MG 151 AP, MG FFM HE, MG 151/20 HE

    German 15 mm (MG 151) Aircraft Ammunition Belt Composition consisted of:
    4 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl (conventional HE/I/T w/o SD)
    1 Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl (AP/T w/o SD)

    An AP round was used to destroy the muzzle cap otherwise a HE round could go off. Note L'spur, Leuchtspur (Tracer), and o. Zerl, ohne Zerlegerung (without Self-Destruct). It was common to use a combined self-destruct fuse and tracer: The projectile exploded when the tracer was burnt out. On some projectiles, special self-destruct fuses were used. The MG 151 was a high-velocity weapon and for ground attack missions Hartkernmunition (AP with a tungsten core) was loaded.

    German 20 mm (MG 151) Aircraft Ammunition Belt Composition consisted of:
    2 Minengeschoß m. Zerl. (the first use of large HE 'Mine' Munition - with Fuse)
    2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl oder Brandgranatpatronen (HE/I/T with Fuse or pure Incendiary)
    1 Panzersprenggranatpatrone o. Zerl oder Panzerbrandgranatpatrone Phospor o. Zerl. (AP/HE/Incendiary without Self-Destruct or AP/I White Phosphorous without Fuse)



    The cartridges shown above are for the German MG 151/20 (20x81):
    "Minensprenggranate mit Zerleger" (HEI-SD) mine shell, m=92,0g, l=82,9mm, 18g high explosive, Vo=785m/s, ol=146,1mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, electrical primer "J", headstamp: exw | 8 | 45 , yellow projectile with green band below fuze, black markings: M El exw 91 45 Mv exw 263/44 ,

    "Panzerbrandgranate Phosphor ohne Zerleger" (API) Phosphorous shell, m=115g, l=80,0mm, 3,6g White Phosphorous in sealed Aluminum container, Vo=720m/s, ol=145,5mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, percussion primer, headstamp: wg | 593 | 44 , black bullet with blue band above bourolet, white
    markings: Ph edq 335/44, stamped in markings: eel 147/44

    German 'High Velocity' 30 mm (MK 101 & 103) Aircaft Ammunition Composition:
    1 Sprenggranatpatrone L'Spur o. Zerl
    1 Minengeschoß L'Spur o. Zerl
    1 Panzersprenggranatpatrone L'Spur o. Zerl oder Panzerbrandsprenggranatpatrone L'Spur o. Zerl

    The MK 103 was a high-velocity weapon with a much better armor penetration than the MK 108. Note the addition of the older type of HE round and semi-AP. The exception were the nightfighters, which used only the Minengeschoß with a glowing trace (Gl'spur). For anti-tank missions, Hartkernmunition with tungsten cores was used, but it would be wasteful to use this scarce ammunition against aircraft.

    German 'Low Velocity' 30mm (MK 108) Aircraft Ammunition:
    Only Minengeschoß 108 El o. Zerl. (Incendiary without Fuse) was used.

    Only the Minengeschoß was fired by the MK 108, also in versions with day or night tracer. The ammunition was not interchangeable with that of the much more powerful MK 101 and MK 103.


    There are a lot of references to the MG 151/15 as also being an Automatic Cannon. One can argue to it's use of Fused Explosive Charges. Granted the volume of the Minengeschoß delivered greater explosive charge, but what makes the 15 mm (MG 151) Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl different to the 20 mm (MG 151) Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl other than Caliber? They both are High Explosive Incindeary Tracers with Fuses and they are both dual purpose MG and Cannon ammmo. The advent of the exclusive automatic electric ignition aircraft Cannon designation certainly ended all future clasification misnomers.

    Even the Tenth Round of 7.92 mm (MG17) Aircraft Ammuniton used a small HE charge and some Incendiary, the B-Geschoß, a Beobachtungs Patrone or observation round. It exploded upon contact and the pilot was able to verify that he was hitting the target. During the Battle of Britain, the British used the Dixon-De Wilde round for similar purposes, and pilots generally felt that this was extremely useful. This is an example of how small HE rounds can be employed though they certainly don't make Automatic Cannons.

    Incidentally the USSR had earlier followed the same route as MG 151. The first model of the ShVAK aircraft cannon was chambered for a rimmed, 12.7x99R cartridge. This was not much of a performer, so the case was necked up to 20mm caliber to make their standard WW2 aircraft cannon. It was fitted to Soviet fighters throughout the war but in 1945 it was replacemend with the much lighter B-20. The B-20 was one of the best aircraft guns of the war.

    Ironically the US applied the same lesson as the Germans had with the MG151 and necked up the case of the T17 aircraft machine gun to form the 20mm M39 round which has been the standard USAF cannon cartridge since the 1950s. Its most famous application is in the six-barrelled rotary M61 Vulcan cannon, which also serves as the business end of the Phalanx anti-missile system.

    Then there is the matter of Machine Gun classification:
    Traditionally one distinguishes rifle-calibre and medium-calibre machineguns. The latter are often called heavy machineguns (HMGs), but this can lead to confusion because that term is also applied to some rifle-calibre machineguns. Rifle-calibre machine guns (RCMGs) range from 7.5 mm to 8 mm. Medium-calibre weapons are .50 and similar, in practice ranging from 11 mm to 15 mm. The bullet is up to four times heavier than that of a rifle-calibre machinegun, and can be fired at a high muzzle velocity. Hence it usually has good ballistic characteristics. The rate of fire is usually much lower than that of rifle-calibre weapons.
    So the 'limit' for cannon calibers is a loose definition pending on the capability and type of ammunition used. It is commonly assumed that HE ammunition is really effective only in calibers of 20mm or larger, but it was also made for 12.7mm and even rifle-calibre weapons. Usually light and heavy machineguns were loaded with a mixture of incendiary and armour-piercing rounds. Such ammunition also exists for 20 mm cannon, so the projectile may not necessarily always be high-explosive.


    Which do you think are Automatic Cannon Cartridges? (Yellow = HE)
    http://users.bigpond.net.au/feckless/German%20ammo.html



    He219

  6. #186
    Moderator James's Avatar
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    I think we should let this forum fade away, like an old soldier...

  7. #187
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    no0bodys called anyone a nazi yet

  8. #188
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    Martin you're a Nazi!

  9. #189
    Federov Avtomat, FTW!
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    "The L85Ax has no such thing as standard version, both versions with and without SUSAT are in British Army service. "

    For quite some time the "Standard" issue SA-80 came with a scope. The vast majority issued were fitted with scopes. When the limitations of scopes were found some units chose iron sight versions, but the standard issue SA-80 had a scope.

    "The most important thing is the calibre. If you produces 7,62mm HE round (it isn't impossible), then it be automatically change into cannon round? "

    If that 7.62mm round was designed from the outset to use a HE round as a primary round of ammo, then yes, you could argue the case, however you would fail as this would mean the same problem you seem to have with rifle rounds would appear. (ie with your intermediate rifle round definition... this 7.62mm cannon round compares to a .22lr "rifle round" being underpowered compared to what are generaly accepted cannon rounds).

    If you are happy with one abberation, another shouldn't matter either.

    "If - as you said - cannon round definition is based only on shells"

    A cannon is a weapon that fires Shells. A rifle fires bullets. The cannon shell is currently defined as 20mm in calibre, though HMGs can fire shells, as can rifles. If have seen HE shells for .223 rounds, but the charges are so small that I don't think anyone would consider it a cannon.

    Thanks for the link to the RT-20. Even using a relatively mild 20 x 110mm round it requires both a muzzle brake and a significant rearward directed blast of propellent to make it safe for shoulder firing. Such cartridge sizes are not ideal for very hv AP rounds. Hense my suggestion that HE would be the most often used round, though obviously for anti tank use a small calibre Sabot round might be used too.


    "I think we should let this forum fade away, like an old soldier..."

    Why, this is a discussion forum isn't it? That is what we are doing isn't it?

    Despite an inability to agree on everything (anything... ) it has not become heated or personal, except when Duke pops his head in... but I am begining to think that is his role here...

  10. #190
    "It's a Toyota D*ckhead" Beowulf's Avatar
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    "That sounds like something Hitler would say".....(foolproof ways to win any argument #54)

  11. #191
    Hot Biker Dude of Death Royal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GazB
    "The L85Ax has no such thing as standard version, both versions with and without SUSAT are in British Army service. "

    For quite some time the "Standard" issue SA-80 came with a scope. The vast majority issued were fitted with scopes. When the limitations of scopes were found some units chose iron sight versions, but the standard issue SA-80 had a scope.
    Rubbish. The L85A1 was first issued to the Brigade of Guards, line infantry units, the Parachaute Regiment and the Royal Marines. The SUSAT was (and still is) issued to 'Combat Arms' (with the general exception of the Royal Armoured Corps - although their Recce Troops receive them).

    Combat Support and Combat Service Support arms retained the L1A1 and the Stirling for longer, before receiving the L85 with irion sights (a few SUSATs are provided for familiarisation and training only).

    Line units keep the iron sight as a backup in the gunner's spare parts wallett (or should). It is also used in the jungle (and as a matter of sub-unit choice) in other areas where an optical sight has a tendancy to steam up.

  12. #192
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    So what are you saying Royal?
    The fighting troops on the front lines use the scopes, except in Jungles, while the REMFs use the Iron sights?

    So the weapons being assault rifles have scopes, except in Jungle, and the weapons being SMGs have iron sights. (My brother made a similar switch from Sterlings to Steyrs... he certainly prefers the latter...)

  13. #193
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    well, seeing as it says favorite weapon, not gun, id have to say the F-15E Strike Eage... Fast, good turning radius. HEAVY load and awesome radar system.

    As far as gun, id say the M-4SOPMOD.

  14. #194
    No Good Bloody Seppo California Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    "That sounds like something Hitler would say".....(foolproof ways to win any argument #54)
    But what would Brian Boitano do?

  15. #195

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    New vote....That smartgun from ALIENS,you know the lmg on the harness....Huh....huh-huh.....yeah...... :P

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