Reply With QuoteI also spotted it.Originally Posted by solidarnosc
you don't happen to have a link to this report or videoclip?
I also spotted it.
Last edited by Sato; 01-07-2008 at 10:31 AM.
Looks like a space marine.
Yeah, either that or a troll
You gotta have more faith in people, manYeah, either that or a troll
but yeah, probably a troll. Although who knows in this crazy, crazy world...
P. De Crem en commission de la défense : les AIV et les 90mm "inadaptés"
The purchase of the AIV and the 90mm turret will be reviewed.
(credit goes to Solidarnosc for posting it on paracommando.com)
Last edited by Sato; 01-17-2008 at 10:20 AM.
The entire AIV procurement will be reviewed. In the parliamentary defense commission the Minister of Defense said that not only the 90mm but the entire procurement will be reviewed as the Piranha IIIC is deemed to have been the wrong choice. Says so, Go to 'De Kamer' and the 16 January 2008 Session of the kamercommissie landsverdediging, scroll down to pages 37 & 38 of the PDF (Dutch/French).
A Belgian cancellation of the AIV programme would be the best thing that could happen. If they at the same time would downsize the Dingo 2 order to a 100 units and the LMV order to 200 vehicles they would be onto something.
All the money released through such actions could be used for a more "danish" solution when it comes to vehicles. With that I mean several different but smaller programmes to adress a larger amount of diverse operational requirements. The money released could be used as follows:
In addition the introduction rates of the BMS should be lowered and initially only added to command vehicles and vehicles used by company and maybe platoon commanders.
- 50-60 Leopard 2A4
- 50-60 IFV:s (CV90, Ulan etc)
- 100-150 tracked APC:s (M113 or AIFV) upgraded to FFG WARAN standard
- 100-120 wheeled APC:s in different configurations (with HMG in soft mounts, about 30 equipped with a OWS for said HMG)
- Upgrade of a small number of Leopard 1 versions including recovery, engineering and bridgelaying
Any sums that are left could be used to start replacing the Milan ATGM or maybe more importantly buy LG-1 or M-777 howitzers for the artillery so the infantry can get their mortars back.
How do you get enough money to use all these shiny toys then? I'd say that the Belgian landforces would need a total makeover including:
Quite a few people will have to find work outside of the forces but thats the way it has to be. With similar reforms in the navy and airforce the personnel costs will drop significantly releasing funds to be used on training, equipment and operations.
- Disbanding one reconnaisance battalion
- Disbanding one tank battalion
- Disbanding the IRCC
- Disbanding three logistics battalions
- Disbanding two CIS-groups or disbanding all of them and transferring personnel, equipment and know-how to two brigade HQ companies and one signals battalion with the capability to act as a divisional HQ
- Possibly amalgamate 1 and 3 Para
- Integrate 1/3 Para and 2 Commando in the command structure of 1st and 7th Brigade respectively
- Disband 1 engineer battalion while retaining two of its companies and assigning one each to the two infantry brigades
- Make one tank battalion, one air defence battallion, one engineer battalion, one signals battalion, one logistics battalion and one reconnaisance battallion divisional or higher level assets with no direct affiliation to the brigades.
Last edited by Erki; 01-17-2008 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Spelling
You bring up some interesting points.
However in your vision the Belgian army would (capability-wise) be in the same situation as it is today. While the policy of these last few years has been to move to a leaner ,more modern and easy deployable force.
Furthermore, downsizing the army is indeed (IMO) neccesary and it is in fact one of the components of "Le plan stratégique 2000-2015 " but the marginal results to date are proof that it is a very delicate matter, and can't be done from one day to the next.
I don't really agree with your first statement. The organisation that i'm proposing would be lightyears from what exists today in terms of firepower, protection, diversity and integrated capabilities to operate under many different constraints and in many different theatres of operations. A well balanced force in short.
Today basicly the whole army is driving around in Unimogs. At the same time HUGE sums are being spent on buying equipment that is overprized and won't be up to the job. Or in some instances giving capabilities that do not correspond to the organisations own limitations.
The Strategic Plan is the doing of Mr Flahaut and we all know how incompetent that man is/was. Even though it contains some sensible aspects its more or less outdated and irrelevant in the current context and should be scrapped. The Belgian Armed Forces are constantly being used as a bad example abroad of how not to organize and procure. Would it not be lovely to change all that?
I'm no fan at all to reduce the army component even further.
What I would envisage is using 'hybride battallions' like the Telemark battalion. They have tracked & wheeled vehicles, there was a good article once by Assaut...in short wikipedia has some info. Instead of the Leopard perhaps we ought to opt for the CV90-120 (uparmored) and instead of the Sisu's I'd use the AIV. Perhaps reshuffle the ratio of tracked & wheeled with some battalions more tracked and others more wheeled, divided between the 1st and 7nd brigade. [another option is to replace the CV90's in telemark's function by AIV and Sisu's with Dingo 2's.]
Bring back the Brigade PaCo (now under IRCC) and equip them with higher end MRAP's [more in the Rafael Golan style, than Dingo's].
I am in operationel status now and leaving for Lebanon in a few weeks. I'll have to make due with the FNC. But the new recruits are already using the F2000 at the shooting range............and I've never even seen the weapon in real life let alone touch it
Ehm wasn't this the photo section section of the forum and not the talk alot about politics etc section?Anyways here a few pics.
What I wanted to point out was that, in my opinion, you're proposal ignores some issues. First of all the powers that be have, apparently, decided to shift the Belgian armed forces from a full spectrum capable force to a more specialized force. And that's why I think that your proposal is "overkill".
And secondly, You're suggesting downsizing the Belgian army quite a bit. My observation is that, although I agree with you that it is necessary, it seems a bit overambitious to me. Especially when looking at the marginal progress these last few years.
I can imagine that the reorganization of the Belgian armed forces is considered as a "bad example" and that Flahaut has pulled some stunts. But I do believe that the minister of defense can only do as much as the political climate, which doesn't seem to be enthusiastic about the armed forces, allows him.
Yet I do hope that De Crem will have some more political courage to turn the Belgian army into an efficient, flexible and capable force for the future.
Last edited by Sato; 01-18-2008 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Spelling
What people sometimes forget is that defence policies of Flahaut (and not his "stunts") were supported by the majority and opposition parties as Sato said. I can't remember any politicians (and even journalists) who opposed transformation to an all-wheeld "median" army .In fact I can't remember a single public figure who has a different vision on Belgian defence as it is written down in the paper posted above. If people can point to politicians, political parties, opinian makers who are in favour of buying heavy tanks or tracked IFV's they are welcome to do so but I personally am not aware of a single one. Ok Ducarme (MR) after being silent on this subject the last decade or two but if he had a problem with it he should have mentioned it before the contract was signed and even before army took the decision to go for an all wheeled force. That decission was taken almost a decade ago if I am correct. It's possible to change your opinion ofcourse. The only new proposal I've heard from De Crem (up till know) was an old proposal of Flahaut that in my opinion is more stupid than going for an all wheeled force.
"
Donc, le 90 mm ainsi que lesfinalement choisi est Mohawk"
105 mm ont été proposés. Le soumissionnaire
Yep. Mohawk. I hope he didn't say it lake that.
Last edited by solidarnosc; 01-18-2008 at 03:26 PM.
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