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I don't think there is a memorial. I heard about it from my history teacher in school who mentioned that incident. I remembered it because I found it very impressive at the time and because the name of the guy was so ordinary (Joseph Schultz is a bit like John Smith in English...a name that is nearly cliché).
Fact is however, that there are countless heroic deeds of a very great number of German soldiers which went unrecognized. Basically this includes every young man who died in this war wanting to defend Germany. Or everyone who was crippled for life. That should be remembered by us Germans. As far as foreigners go...if they would manage to kick the habit of calling our soldiers "Nazis" and call them "Germans" instead, this may honor Joseph Schultz more than another oddly shaped stone on which the doves crap.
Referenced.
I agree with you Kitsune. Every time I hear the word "Nazi" in referrence to a German soldier of WWII, I get annoyed. It's like calling US soldiers in Iraq "Republicans" or "Neoconservatives".
Much like when one of you gentlemen calls the Red Army a 'bunch of Commies'.I agree with you Kitsune. Every time I hear the word "Nazi" in referrence to a German soldier of WWII, I get annoyed. It's like calling US soldiers in Iraq "Republicans" or "Neoconservatives".
Lokos
I would suspect that anyone german or foriegn who has taken the time to read some of the words that these soldiers who have survived have put to paper, some of us are less willing to just call them "Nazis" I remember being a small child, and watching the movie "A Bridge too far" and asking my grandmother who the "Bad Guys" are, my grandmother said "There are none, they are both fighting for thier side" its funny how a few simple words can impact how a small childs mind trys to understand war, and how it effects how one looks at it later in life.Originally Posted by Kitsune
It's a shame there weren't a few million more like Joseph Schultz. History might have been different. Unfortunately most German soldiers at the time period fell into the category of those holding the rifles.
I think a better example would be soldiers on either side who died defending their friends/comrades. Or the Soviets who died fighting for their homes.
If you died defending Germany from 1933-1945, you died defending the Third Reich and all that it entailed. Just as Soviets who died defending the Soviet government died defending one of the most bloodthirsty regimes this planet has ever seen.
There is honor in fighting for your friends, but there has and never will be honor in fighting for Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.
There almost certainly were 'bad guys'. Unless you're prepared to argue that Germany was on the same moral plane as the Allies. In which case we almost certainly would have left them alone and let them get on with whatever they wanted.I would suspect that anyone german or foriegn who has taken the time to read some of the words that these soldiers who have survived have put to paper, some of us are less willing to just call them "Nazis" I remember being a small child, and watching the movie "A Bridge too far" and asking my grandmother who the "Bad Guys" are, my grandmother said "There are none, they are both fighting for thier side" its funny how a few simple words can impact how a small childs mind trys to understand war, and how it effects how one looks at it later in life.
Individual soldiers may not have been 'bad guys' but at some point you take ownership for the values and morals you are fighting for.
Every combat soldier dieing silently at the front for his homeland deserves respect.
It doesnt matter for which regime in question here.
Thats my conviction and it gets stronger with every account and diary I read from combat soldiers.
I've been reading memoirs and accounts of combat soldiers for the past fifteen years or so, they get my respect for fighting for their friends and enduring incredible hardship, not for fighting for a despotic regime.
Soldiers in the Soviet and German armies were dying silently at the front for their 'homeland', while their homelands murdered millions of their own people. That doesn't deserve respect and it dishonors the memory of men such as Schultz who rebelled.
Well yeah, I know about that photo, its a legend and I saw it in germany TV, but to this day it was always said it wasnt ture and that photo showed somone else, maybe they found out more now and can tell that its a fact.
Thats really a hard story, but it was only the beginning of things that are worse. SS and Gestapo began, later in the war, shoot everyone that seem to disobey orders or that would try to go into US custody. Everyone that was was even slightly against any given orders or in the Nazi belives where executed.
Well, its funny how much the germans where always displayed as the bad guys in the WW2 movies even up today. Most German soldiers where not even Nazis at all, they where only soldiers. My dad always kept telling me, as I was a child, that I shouldnt cheer too much on the deaths of Soldiers in the War movies, if it where germans or japanese or any other nationality.
Ya know, I saw the orginal footage of the D-Day and all and as I first time saw this, the Soldiers running into thier death, I was sad. For the first time, I relized, how life, human life was wasted for a war like that, a war started by one insane man and his henchmen.
A few days ago, I saw a documentary about the war prisoners of the eastern front and thier realease, its called "The return of the 10.000". Form millions of german soldiers, only 10.000 returned.
Well, I hope that something like this will never, ever happen again.
You're thinking of original Stalingrad survivors. Most captured Germans soldiers, who survived initial marches from the front to the rear survived. Soviets treated German POW better.
Nazis or not, many members of the Wehrmacht supported Hitler. Letters from the time period are full of glowing praise for the Fuehrer. And not just sycophantic 'I hope this makes it past the censors' praise. A large number of Wehrmacht soldiers wholeheartedly supported Hitler.
While it doesn't automatically make them 'bad guys' it certainly doesn't chalk one up for them in the 'good guys' column.
Of course, that changes once they get their teeth kicked in at Stalingrad (and suprisingly, not even that much), but by then it's a little too late.
Cheering on Barbarossa and then complaining when Ur**** comes around doesn't absolve you from the fact that you supported everything that brought you to that point.
This distinction is important in my mind because men like Joseph Schultz did the right thing and paid a terrible cost for it. They truly were 'good guys'. They are FAR more deserving of being remembered than those who simply went along with their government's actions, regardless of their reasons.
Well, not everyone belived in Hitler, but thes where drafted and hoped the best. I mean, not everyone praised Hitler, but on the othe hand, they could not just walk up and say "Hitler sucks!". Germany back then was not a free scoiety and everything was controlled. Even the Officers warned Hitler for movies like Stalingrad and it was Rommel who retreated even if Hitler order otherwise.
They where Soldiers, there was nothing good or bad on them, most of them where normal people that just served into the army. It wasnt better in the Red Army, there where the Kommissars who shot everyont that didnt wanted to fight, in the german army it was the SS and Gestapo who kept them in check. Og course, many soldiers where willing to do what they where orderd and many didnt do nothing, but you cant just say that everyone of them liked Hitler and the whole Nazi thing.
What I was trying to say with that the german soldier is always displayed as the bad guy in a movie, is the fact that they are never displayed as humans there. The US Soldiers are always the heros, while the germans are the insane war driven maniacs that need to be killed, the sob that deserves to die.
That they where normal men, with a wife and kids, that not all of the where Nazis and not all of them belived into Hitler and his propaganda is always forgotten.
The same officers who had no real objections to Hitler prior to when he started making strategic mistakes. When the Wehrmacht was rolling through Poland and France and during the first weeks of Barbarossa, everything was fine and dandy. The General staff and those below did absolutely nothing to oppose Hitler until they thought they might lose the war.
Being a soldier doesn't absolve you of anything. And I've already drawn parallels to the Red Army soldiers who fought for Stalin. They don't get my respect either. I'm not harping on just the Germans.They where Soldiers, there was nothing good or bad on them, most of them where normal people that just served into the army. It wasnt better in the Red Army, there where the Kommissars who shot everyont that didnt wanted to fight, in the german army it was the SS and Gestapo who kept them in check. Og course, many soldiers where willing to do what they where orderd and many didnt do nothing, but you cant just say that everyone of them liked Hitler and the whole Nazi thing.
I never claimed they were all Nazis or they all supported what was going on. But historical evidence shows that a large majority did.
They certainly were human. They certainly did have families. But so did the concentration camp guards. Himmler had a family. That doesn't buy you a pass.What I was trying to say with that the german soldier is always displayed as the bad guy in a movie, is the fact that they are never displayed as humans there. The US Soldiers are always the heros, while the germans are the insane war driven maniacs that need to be killed, the sob that deserves to die.
That they where normal men, with a wife and kids, that not all of the where Nazis and not all of them belived into Hitler and his propaganda is always forgotten.
The fact that they were normal men with wives and children is what makes the events of that period so chilling. They were normal human beings... who supported some of the most terrible governments the planet has ever seen. You don't form the three Army Groups who invaded Russia out of reluctant warriors.
Again, I respect them for their hardship, for those who died in defense of their friends. For those who fought for survival. Not those who fought in support of their governments.
And ultimately, I respect men like Joseph Schultz more than any of them.
@Hunterhr:
I don't mean to get very deep into this. Therefore I leave it with this one last post.
1) Not all Germans of the time supported Hitler. But even many of those who did not decided to defend their country, that's how they saw it. My Grandfather, for example, thought that way. He was a staunch catholic, therefore Nazism and membership in the Naziparty came never in question for him. Still he fought for his country which he did not wanted to be squashed by its enemies.
2) Many others supported Hitler, true. But "their" Hitler is not the Hitler we see today. Today people see the raving maniac butcher of millions of Jews and others. But they saw him as their head of state whose policy was by and large acceptable. Who had acted against injustices done against Germany when others had just talked. And so on. The Holocaust was NOT a known thing among the Germans. If you don't get this, you simply will never understand why happened, what happened. And be always left wondering why so many fought with such resilience for this guy. Period.
3) And finally, when the Red Army rampaged through Germany, with a bow-wave of millions of fearful civilians just before them...many German soldiers fought with the aim of defending their country or their people. Their are many examples of those who fought and died with completely inferior means to delay the Soviets a bit more, to hold a bridge open a while longer. Call that how you want. I call it "heroism." And I fail to see the difference of the German kind and the non-German kind.
Regards,
Kitsune
German soldiers at the time were trained to not be political. Many, if not most, were not members of the Nazi party, at least according to Guderian and Rommel. In fact, from what I've read, it seemed dishonorable for a Soldier to become involved in politics of any kind, which is the reason why the Waffen SS was so dispised by the Heer, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine.
Of course, it is difficult for Americans to understand such a thing, because of Soldier-Politicians like Washington, Grant, etc., but that's the way it was. It doesn't excuse what many of them did, but a vast number of German soldiers did in fact serve their nation with honor in a time of great crisis.
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