Reply With Quote
u need to check your facts son, who said anything about getting my facts from the last samurai? (every body knows that americans were not brought in to teach the japanese warfare and everybody knows that the samurai were actually the "bad" guys in the situation, now khabbi tell me the name of the rebellion that the movie was based on, tell me the name of the fugure Ken Wattanabe's character was based on?)
U don't feel like backing up all your facts with dates (hell u haven't stated ANY facts).....that's your rebuttal? Sounds like u have no facts at all, this is a forum for discussion on history, yet u provide no evidence for your "statements of fact" hmmmm, interesting.
"but SHingen was a very highly ranked samurai and a "ninja" ."
Shingen!LOL the only, prominent Shingen in japanese history was Takeda Shingen; A Daimyo, wow next u r gonna be saying President Bush was/is a Navy SEAL.
U need to read before u start dropping names. . Here i'll use his full name. TAKEDA SHINGEN, Lord of Kai (1521 - 1573)
I have a list of all the prominent Samurai in Japanese history and this is the only Shingen i found (and just to be curious who was his main rival?)
Now if u woulda said Hattori Hanzo instead of Shingen, then u would have a valid arguement, but u didn't, u said Shingen (hell u didn't even use a full name! Hell u only used his first name! C'mon do better)
Hattori Hanzo was a retainer for the Tokugawa (which would most likely make him a samurai). He definitly had ties to the ninja but he himself was not a ninja, He was a shonin (village headman), below him where the chujin these were the men who went about making the arrangements for hiring ninja as mercenaries, the final level were the genin, these were the men who actually undertook the misions, these men (or women) are what we commonly refer to as ninja. This supports my statement that the Samurai would hire the ninja on a regular basis (some were even on the payroll), but they did not act as ninja, There is no basis for them acting as ninja in the historical record . They would have tolerated ninja in their areas, and why not, as they were a useful comodity.
Bushido was "invented" to keep the unemployed samurai under controle during the edo period because there was no wars (scimishes doesent count ) alot of samurai were getting unemployed and doing bad stuff , so to keep them in check they made the bushido to strengthen valules and keep them in check
Samurai who had lost their masters (through death, end of line, confiscation of lands, etc) had were made ronin, these men had three options, become monks, bandits, or find service with another master. This was happening long before the edo period so your statement that this was only happening during the edo period and thereby making the law necessary to control that BS.
You are right in saying that bushido was based on the Daimyo house laws (but then again u didn't say that, because that would mean that the Samurai had laws to which they were obedient to previous to the edo period, which u implied they didn't), but again that supports my statement that in the 1800's bushido was made the basis for the whole society (merchants, landowners, farmers, craftsman, whores, in other words everyone) to ensure the poulation's loyalty to the Emperor and not the local Daimyo, in whom's domain that person might reside. That was the whole point of the Meji Restoration, the emperor regaining power (in the many centuries before the Emperor was basically a puppet, not unlike the queen of england is now. Royalty, yes but no political power), or did u miss the whole point of that period?
Just to prove my point that the Samurai were never lawless I will include a portion of the Daimyo house code for Imagawa Ujichika (source the Imagawa Kana Mokuroku 1526):
In dealing with those who have quarreled, both parties should be sentenced to death, irrespective of who is in the right or in the wrong. In cases where one party to the dispute, although provoked and attacked, controls himself, makes no defense and, as a result, is wounded his appeal should be granted. While it is reprehensible that he should have been a party to the dispute and perhaps contributed to its outbreak, his respect for the law in not returning the attack merits consideration. However, in cases where warriors come to the aid of one or other parties to a dispute and then claim to be an injured party, their claims shall not be entertained, even if they should be wounded or killed.
Now if the repercussions were so harsh for those who quarreled, how bad do u think it would be for those who advocated treachery? The retainers were hardly backstabers as u so incorrectly stated:
Another respon for the bushido was to keep samurais from backstabbing their masters , so no more wars were gonna start
Another one of your facts i suppose.
Just becuase you go out and shoot with a bow and swing a sword doesent mean you are a samurai , I myself do Kendo , Iaido and Kyudo , that doesent mean im a samurai .
I never said there were samurai still around. I said:
And to say the Samurai thing ended is also false, they ceased to be the dominant force in japanese society and culture, but they did not fade away completely. (Tell that to the practitioners of the sword and those that learn and teach archery from horseback to this day in Japan. These just happen to be samurai specific techniques). So if vestiges* of the samurai exist who is to say ninjas in some shape or form don't exist either?
*Main Entry: ves·tige
****unciation: 'ves-tij
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Latin vestigium footstep, footprint, track, vestige
1 a (1) : a trace, mark, or visible sign left by something (as an ancient city or a condition or practice) vanished or lost (2) : the smallest quantity or trace
Since u r the expert and i know nothing at all, tell me about the siege at Shimabara and what role did the ninja play in it? (and what was signifigant about the seige?). Ok i'll give u an easy one what were the two areas famous for producing ninja?
Word to the wise before u start calling people wrong, at least have athouritative statements that backs up your claim Especially when someone calls u on it ("Ninjas did spy work , ambushes and assasinations and regular samurai stuff", is hardly athurotative, and is this one of the "facts" u claim to have made?). i have been wrong before and i'm sure i'll be wrong again, and i freely admit it when i am presented with valid information showing my error. U haven't provided anything remotely valid!
I have already stated where i get my info from in my previous post (My source only recieved his doctorate from Leeds University and has written a multitude of works on Japan, ranging from the Samurai to christianity (his thesis actually) in Japan, and has recieved multiple awards for his work, some even from japan!). If you would like a list of his works go here and check it out.... http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen....blications.htm
So the questuion begs...where do u get yours?
Originally Posted by ronin2172
well maybe that's democracy 
