FN FAL L1A1 SLR -vs- Enfield L85 (SA80) assault rifle

[Mark Sman]

I'll take the Enfield.

The Lee-Enfield No1. MkIII* thank you very much.

[D.E. Watters]

How many EM2's were actually made ? Any idea anyone - must have been a few made for trials, pattern weapons etc.

According to "EM-2 Concept & Design" by Thomas B. Dugelby, the production figures break out as follows:

20: Original .280/30 models by RSAF Enfield (One or two of these were actually made by Chambons. Another pair were years later converted to 6.25x43mm.)

4: "HV" models by Chambons (A pair of each were originally chambered in either 7x49mm or 7.62x51mm. The 7mm HV-1 is later converted to 7.62x51mm and finally .30-06.)

10: 7.62x51mm models by BSA

15: 7.62x51mm models by RSAF Enfield

10: 7x51mm models by Canadian Arsenals Ltd.

[GazB]

Without a bipod or better still a tripod there is no such thing. Automatic fire is necessary for room/trench clearing, but controlled it ain't.

I have seen soldiers firing bursts of fire at targets from AK-74s with impacts close enough to be called controlled at 100m or so. In fact when fitted with the under barrel grenade launchers the rifle barely appears to move during firing.

The right/left handed issue is true, although I've never met a left handed soldier who couldn't be trained to shoot (a rifle) right handed.

Firing around cover you will miss not beign able to swap shoulders. When I hunt I usually prefer to fire from concealment (cover is not necessary as they don't shoot back). With an SKS or an AK I can do that... even with an AR-15 I can do that and I can certainly do that with my SLR. So instead of exposing my chest and head firing around the left side of a wall I just expose my shoulder and the side of my head to my left eye.

The weight issue is actually an advantage as it keeps a short weapon well seated in the shoulder and thus aids the accuracy of what is already a very accurate weapon.

Most conventional rifles are front heavy for a reason. Rear heavy rifles tend to flip up under recoil. With underbarrel grenade launchers the AK series is considered by some to be too front heavy so bullpup models were developed especially to balance this out. Because of this with a grenade launcher on it I would expect the SA-80 would be better handling than the SLR, but otherwise it is just too damn heavy for what it is supposed to be.

with an SLR and I never liked the fact that the rear sight comes off with the receiver cover.

My SLR has a fixed flip up rear sight that is part of the rear portion of the gun... which model did you use?
(mine also has the flipout cocking handle).

ps - isnt the old .280 performance close to the new 6.8mm round the US are allegedly looking at ?

So Ironic... what a waste.

A late friend of mine I used to enjoy hunting with was in the territorials and thought the Steyr AUG was a neat rabbit gun but he wouldn't use it on game bigger than a goat if he ever could take it hunting.

As a hunter myself I wouldn't use intermediate rounds on deer sized game except at very close range.

[Zentrum Jagdkampf]

The Enfield L85 is a piece of **** which calls itself an assault rifle!It should be replaced by a good bullpup like the AUG!

[Steve Andrews]

[quote="GazB"]

with an SLR and I never liked the fact that the rear sight comes off with the receiver cover.

My SLR has a fixed flip up rear sight that is part of the rear portion of the gun... which model did you use?
(mine also has the flipout cocking handle).

Sorry...thinking Galil there... with the SLR the thing I don't like is that the rear section is hinged with the forward section. This always gave me worries about wobbling and effects on zero.

[oldsoak]

There is a way of shooting the SA80 from the left shoulder - its not official and its only in extremis where a better firing position cannot be had -set gas plug to the grenade setting ( this will make it single shot ) one can then shoot from the left shoulder, albeit having to manually recycle the action. Poor, but better than nothing. Oh, and dont forget to change the gas setting back when your finished.
rgds

[Red]

I have never fired the SA-80 but i have lots of trigger time on the SLR,that is one fantastic weapon,most of the ones we used were british hand-me-downs so we had to do a whole lot of cleaning but i have to say that the SLR is one of the best rifles that i know.

[Michael RVR]

There is a way of shooting the SA80 from the left shoulder - its not official and its only in extremis where a better firing position cannot be had -set gas plug to the grenade setting ( this will make it single shot ) one can then shoot from the left shoulder, albeit having to manually recycle the action. Poor, but better than nothing. Oh, and dont forget to change the gas setting back when your finished.
rgds

You'd want to make sure that first round hit wouldn't you ? :P Is there not case deflectors available for the SA80, as there is for the AUG? Not that i've ever seen one for real, but it would be a better solution than what you're suggesting.

[oldsoak]

The case doesnt eject as the gas setting shuts off the gas flow from the barrel. The rifle doesnt **** itself as a result, you have to do that manually after every shot on that setting, so you dont get the problem of getting the cocking lever ( which is attached directly to the breech block ) coming back and smacking you in the jaw. It is far from ideal, and its a problem the five minutes of thought could have solved with the cocking handle placed elsewhere ~( maybe like where it is on the AUG ) . It was commented on at trials apparently but the opinion of mere squaddies was ignored. Anyway, the method is only for where the firing position is such that you cant do anything but fire from the left shoulder. Yes you'd want to be a good shot

[-Max2-]

FN FAL all the way !

One of the best rifles ever made...

I will take a FAL (or the lighter FAL-Para) with a Trijicon ACOG scope anyday...



PS: The second rifle on the pic is not a FAL, i know...

[oldsoak]

FAL in 5.56mm ! - that way no changes in weapons handling or drill, all thats changed is the calibre and dimensions. I suspect that the FAL was not a cheap weapon to make which may be a factor in why this approach was not taken.

[Haiw]

It's called FNC...

(Yeah I know, it's different, but there's some resemblance)

[Sabre]

[img]Sorry...thinking Galil there... with the SLR the thing I don't like is that the rear section is hinged with the forward section. This always gave me worries about wobbling and effects on zero.[/img]

My SA80 wobbles like a bitch. The pistol grip probably moves through 5mm if I move it side to side. Bollocks.

I don't think the SLR is heavy. It's a bit long but that's probably because I was used to the SA80. I would argue that the SA80 was too heavy for its design, should be much lighter. Prefer the G3A4K though.

[img]I have seen soldiers firing bursts of fire at targets from AK-74s with impacts close enough to be called controlled at 100m or so. In fact when fitted with the under barrel grenade launchers the rifle barely appears to move during firing.
[/img]

The AK 74 has a very efective muzzle brake. It reduces recoil to a great extent. I'm sure that it is possible to have an accurate group with an AK74 on automatic, but it is not practical to fire on auto the whole time. Single aimed shots remain the most effective means of dropping the target, and for reducing ammo expenditure.

[Ian H]

They did make something called a CAL, which basically was a FAL in 5.56mm, but it wasn't popular and didn't last long. No more info, sorry.

[Red]

The SLR in my opinion was not heavy,it was long but not heavy.Even though i loved the SLR,i felt the G3A3 was a very good rifle which eventually replaced the SLR