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08-09-2006, 05:59 PM
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#46 |
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Junior Member
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Posts: 12
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I don't want to flame this topic really....
But the fact is that Bosnian state in pre-Ottoman period consisted mostly from Bogumils and Catholics. Orthodox, or Serbs as you prefer to call it, didn't had much to do with it... Let's consider it this way.... if Serbs ruled Bosnia, wouldn't than be logical to have one united empire with Serbia, Raska or whatever you call it... (one people - one state)? As most of Serbs in forum mentioned, there was strong connection between Serbia and Byzantine empire. But at the same time, Bosnia fought wars versus more-less all of their neighbours (and most of them because Bogumil religion). That was the reason why most of Bogumils converted to Islam when Ottomans came (because they were constantly harrased by Catholic and Orthodox church). Anyway i would like to avoid this quotation war from both sides, and if needed we can start new thread in other sections of forum where we can discuss this matter.... This is strictly photos and video.... And one more point what i would like to mention: I believe that today we do exaggerate religious feelings of our ancestors. They had much more conflicts/deals based on other basis than religious one. |
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08-09-2006, 06:08 PM
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#47 | |
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Junior Member
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Posts: 12
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08-09-2006, 08:43 PM
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#48 | ||
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Banned user
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Location: South of the Equator
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Quote:
The nobles frequently changed allegiance between Rome and Byzantium, depending on the political advantage they could gain. You have to keep in mind that the Serbs were still relatively new converts to Christianity at the time. Also, there wasn't yet, the strict division between Orthodox and Catholic we see today. The common people were still essentially pagan at heart with only a thin Christian cover on the surface. Even today, a lot of the Orthodox traditions are really pagan ones given a Christian makeover......There are some historians who think that even Car Dusan was probably a pagan, due to his hostility towards the Church. Quote:
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08-09-2006, 09:38 PM
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#49 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: www.mycity-military.com
Posts: 2,765
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Crazyfrik, I guess you realy like that Serbian COA?
Also Serbs had a lot of states, not just Serbia. Ther was Zeta, Raska, Duklja, Montenegro, Bosnia.... |
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08-10-2006, 12:46 AM
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#50 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 134
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Quote:
 If all what you wrote is correct, then please explain to me why did King Tvrtko declare himself King of Serbs? Why did Ban Ninoslav in his declaration to Dubrovnik mentioned Vlahs as the ones traveling through the Bosnia, and Serbs as the ones living in it? Why did Konstantin Porfirogenetus in his famous De Administrando Imperio marked Serbs as the people living East of line Cetina-Pliva-Vrbas? How come Jovan Kinam, calls Bosnian Ban Boric (1154-1164) as a ruler of dalmatian land, while using term dalmatian for Serbs? Why did Pop Dukljanin write that Serbia is divided into two parts. Raska to the East of River Drina, and Bosnia to the west of river Drina? Most of people in Bosnia didn't convert to Islam, and the best proof of that is the fact that since the population count has been done Serbs outnumbered Muslims, up to about 1970's. Not to even mention that Serbian population suffered much greater losses than Muslim did during the cruel Ottoman rule. Not to mention that almost entire Muslim population of eastern Bosnia came there from Serbia after they were forced out by Karadjordje. You say that it should be "one people, one state?" Welcome to history of Middle Ages, when national states either didn't exist or were very weak and dependent on nobility, which often fought each other. Kotromanici always fought Nemanjici, and always used term "King of Raska" for Nemanjici because if they said "King of Serbs" it would mean their king too. Nation state is a result of Nationalism during the 19th century.You also made a very ignorant point about Orthodox Harrasing Bogumils? Well according to you there was no Orthodox faith in Bosnia? Which one is it?  They didn't convert to Islam because they were herrased, but because in Ottoman Empire as a Muslim you didn't have to pay such gruesome taxes like "danak u krvi" or "tax in blood" and Harac, or working several days of the week for a Muslim Spahija. Anyway, as Vuk already told you, religion and nationality are two different things. There were plenty Serbs, Catholics in places like Dubrovnik and Boka. Off course there are some 2 million Serbs Muslims in Bosnia right now. You are ethnically a Serb (maybe Croat) of Muslim faith, and if you are not ready to accept that Serbs were the people who settled Bosnia in 7th. century than please tell me one mention of Bosnians as some Slavic tribe? Or one document which disproves this claim, supported by the De Administrando Imperio.
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08-10-2006, 01:05 AM
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#51 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 134
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People like Mesa Selimovic and Emir Kusturica (two of the most accomplished Bosnian Muslims) accepted their Serbian nationality, while retaining their Muslim faith. Omer-Beg Sulejmanpasic Skopljak, the grandson of Sulejman Pasa Skopljak, the one who slaughtered Belgrade's population in 1814, wrote this poem in 1897:
SRPSTVU Iz mog srca, iz plamenih grudi, iz uzdaha, iz duše i snova, tebi, Srpstvo, moja srećo draga, leti evo, laka pjesma ova. Ti si nebo pred kojijem padam i čijem se veličanstvu divim; tebi srce, krv, misli i duša otimlju se s ushićenjem živim. Ti mi daješ krila sokolova, ti me dižeš gori pod oblake, s te visine gledam prošlost tvoju, gledam slavu i tvoje junake; Gledam dive pod kalpakom sjajnim, na kalpaku perjanice vite. Po plećima smjelih barjaktara udaraju one zlatne kite. Gledam, gledam, pa im letim živo, braću ljubim u junačka čela, a iz oka od sreće i milja otimlje se jedna suza vrela. Suza čista, suza nade moje, suza jasna u sred mračne tmuše, suza vjerna ljubavi i krvi tebi, Srpstvo, dušo moje duše! Zora, 1897, br. 2, str. 1. By the way, Skopljak family was descended from a nobelman Mihajlo, who converted to Islam taking name Ali-Pasa. |
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08-10-2006, 01:11 AM
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#52 | |
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Banned user
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hizbullah HQ
Posts: 9
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Quote:
What Is The New World Order? - Conspiracy Documentary http://www.dumpalink.com/media/11408...y_Documentary_ 
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08-10-2006, 04:50 AM
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#53 | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12
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Quote:
spot the difference yes i like it, i use it for my avatar as you can see @CyberSpec - true @Giko - can you please try to keep out of personal insults... and here are the results in short version 1. King Tvrtko - why king of Serbs? Bosnian banus Stjepan Tvrtko Kotromanic, gathering under his rule not only "small land" Bosnia but also Usora, Hum's area, Travunja, Primorje, Donji Krajevi, Zapadne Strane and Podrinje, has declared himself as the king of "Srblji, Bosnia and Primorje", by which act Bosnia became an independent kingdom and seceded from Croatian-Hungarian state. that's why... because Bosnia couldn't claim status of kingdom and thus Tvrtko couldn't be king. This way he managed to secure better status for Bosnia in medieval Europe. 2. Ban Ninoslav - charter? In the name of the father, son and the holy ghost! I, God's slave, Matej, branch of Ninoslav, great bosnian ban, swear unto the prince of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik's Žan Dandole (Gianni Dandolli) and all the regions of Dubrovnik. I swear just as Ban Kulin swore before me: For the Vlachs to walk freely as they did in the time of Ban Kulin, freely without deceit and evil...thus if a Vlach deceives a Serb, may he be held in the Ban's court. free passage.... I would suggets further reading about Ban Ninoslav, so you can see for yourself what he did and how he felt about serbs (if you really insist), so you wouldn't talk nonsense.... 3. De Administrando Imperio ? At the time it was written (950.) Bosnia was divided between Serbia and Croatia... that's why.... btw. this was well known controversy about this work, and i don't intend to go into it with more details since last 100 yrs varoius discussions couldn't support any side claims. 4. Ban Boric (1154-1164) Byzantine writer Cinnamus stated about Ban Boric: - allied to Hungarians - Bosnia isn't under rule from Serbian lords, but is independent - fought wars versus Byzantine empire and again i would suggest you to check other sources about your statment other than one single serbian site that claims everything what you mentioned here... over and out 
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08-10-2006, 02:24 PM
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#54 | |
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Posts: 134
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Quote:
Tvrtko never crowned himself "Kralj Srblji", you are changing the letters here. He crowned himself as the "Kralj Serbljem" and since Serblje represents older wersion of Srbi, it can only mean King of Serbs. Ban Ninoslav, clearly indicated that the ones passing through the Bosnia, are Vlachs (that is how he called people from Dubrovnik) and the ones actually in Bosnia are Serbs. With your passage you just confirmed what I said. How he felt about Serbs?  Well enlight me please and tell me how did he feel about Serbs?De Administrado Imperio, happens to be the only document from around that time which describes, political and social conditions in that region. It is another problem that certain group of people doesen't like it so it choses to ignore it. Among other things it tells about the regions where Croats and Serbs settled, and the border goes around the line Cetina-Pliva-Vrbas. Since it doesen't mention Bosnians as one of the Slavic tribes who settled the Balkans, nor is there any document mentioning Bosnians as one of the Slavic tribes, it is reasonable to say that Bosnia had to be either Croatian or Serbian, and the dispute between those two possibilities is settled by these documents. Jovan Cinam, stated that Boric was "egzhart Bosne dalmatske" while he used Dalmat for Serb. This the Ninoslav's Declaration, original, and well, well, well. isnt that a perfectly understandable old Serbian. same one used in Dubrovnik and Serbia. By the way, this is the original document held in Dubrovnik.  This is Tvrtko's Declaration to Dubrovnik in which among other things he mentions his ancestors as "Gospoda Srpska" or "Serbian nobility". At the bottom on the right side with big letters he wrote "King of Serbs".  I have several other documents but since we never talked about them I won't use them. For some reason it won't let me post the pictures. Last edited by Giko; 08-10-2006 at 02:46 PM. |
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08-10-2006, 02:40 PM
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#55 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: world wide
Posts: 154
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1-Source please!Book let's say.If it was writen prior to 1980 I am going to read it.
2-Not a single document left after any of "bans" that administrate bosnia at the times mention "bosniaks",bogumils did exist but they were not etnicaly anithing else but serbs and croats fulled by few priests and their supporters that escaped from bulgaria and later from serbia and came to area around riwer neretva and baptized slav/serb abd croat tribes that lived around wich stil were pagans and accepted christianity only in 12th/13th century. edit:this is response to "krejzifrik" post Last edited by Lazarus; 08-10-2006 at 03:06 PM. |
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08-23-2006, 04:16 PM
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#56 |
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Banned user
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 9
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ne deformez pas l'histoire
Dans la bataille de KOSOVES n'avait pas seulement des serbes. Il y avait des forces de toute le Ballkan, et comme c'est une terre albanaise oui il y avait des princes albanais.
Les Turks ont gagne la bataille et on n'a plus etendu des serbes qui se sont reduits en rangs de "raja"=peuple mouton (dite par les turks). Mais les albanais en cours de 4-5 siecles d'histoire qui ont suivi ont de toute temps resiste et faire des grandes rebellions jusqu'au 1912 ou ils ont gagne leur independance.Ils ont gagne leur independance seulement par leurs epees et pas comme les serbes et grecs (i qifsha te 2) par l'entremise de la russie tsariste. Alors arrete de nous faire pleurer sur votre sort et d'essayer de voler des terres de voisins qui ne vous appartiennent pas et regardez l'histoire droit dans les yeux et sortez des lecons. Vos mains ont bcp. de sang de vos voisins et il faudrait bcp. de temps qu'on vous considere comme egale et digne de confiance. |
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08-23-2006, 04:21 PM
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#57 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: world wide
Posts: 154
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And again you'r trying to tell someone else history as yours.If it's not sad it would be funny.
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08-23-2006, 04:28 PM
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#58 |
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Banned user
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The most of our imports come's from other countrys
Posts: 132
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Now i know why nobody likes Albanians.
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08-23-2006, 05:50 PM
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#59 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.
Posts: 1,003
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Fixed your images for you Giko.. (although I can't understand what they say, but nevertheless, visually, they look interesting..
Quote:
Last edited by zealot; 08-23-2006 at 06:10 PM. |
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08-23-2006, 07:32 PM
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#60 |
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Location: world wide
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