NZ Defence Force to upgrade/replace small arms

[TheKiwi]

Defence force weapons in multi-million dollar upgrade
1:47PM Tuesday February 26, 2008

Weapons used by the three services of the New Zealand military, the army, the navy and the air force, are to be upgraded at a cost of millions of dollars.

The New Zealand Defence Force has begun a study of 10 weapons systems, mostly small arms issued to soldiers, sailors and airmen.

However, although the 13,000 Steyr rifles which have been in service for 20 years, would not be replaced, they would be a significant part of the upgrade programme.

The study would look at modifying about 3000 of the 13,000 5.56mm rifles so they could take more fittings on the top rail, instead of the factory-fitted 1.5 magnification sighting system

However, the light support system, the 5.56mm Minimi light machine gun would be replaced. It was first issued in 1988 and was expected to come to the end of its useful economic life in about 18 months.

The study would also include the 9mm Sig Sauer pistols, first introduced in 1992, shotguns, sniper rifles and the Carl Gustov anti-tank weapon first introduced in 1989.

NZDF spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Hugh McAslan, said the Steyr rifles would be upgraded rather than replaced because they were in good condition and there were few other comparable options on the market.

Steyr ammunition would also be in the trial to see if a more powerful round would improve the versatility of the rifle.

"We have got a whole range of questions we need to answer through the testing and evaluation activity."

Lt Col McAslan said the Steyr rifles could be used in Afghanistan where they could be shooting at an enemy 400 metres away or in the jungles of East Timor where they could be only 10 metres away.

He said the demands on weapons from different environments would be included in the evaluation.

He said the NZDF wanted another 10 years of life out of the Steyrs but the 3000 to be upgraded would be able to be fitted with a range of sights and ancillary options such as white light and aiming systems.

The Steyr upgrade would begin next year and finish in 2011 but the entire programme would be completed in 2014 and would cost about $33 million.

- NZPA

Wonder what we'll replace the Minimi with? New minimi's, or the new H&K Support Weapon or something else?

[T3ngu]

Steyr ammunition would also be in the trial to see if a more powerful round would improve the versatility of the rifle.

Do they mean they are going to reevaluate the 5.56mm round? Thats what im reading, steyr ammunition obviously refers to the 5.56

[TheKiwi]

It's an NZPA release. We're lucky they don't think they fire lasers charged by AA batteries.

I read that as 5.56mm ammo in general to be reviewed (as well as all the rest of the items in the article).

[arvo10]

Originally Posted by TheKiwi

Wonder what we'll replace the Minimi with? New minimi's, or the new H&K Support Weapon or something else?

The gummon will replace the minimi's with re-calibrated bren guns and then in a few years, replace the live rounds with blank rounds - "for training purposes" and then phase it out completely because in the future in Helengrad , there will be no wars to fight.

[gafkiwi]

Originally Posted by T3ngu

Do they mean they are going to reevaluate the 5.56mm round? Thats what im reading, steyr ammunition obviously refers to the 5.56

More than likely looking at a heavier grain projectile in 5.56mm. As for the C-9/minimi, Something more along the lines of the 7.62 varient of the same weapon is more likely, Which would allow easier conversion/training.

[Alfacentori]

[Quote]NZDF spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Hugh McAslan, said the Steyr rifles would be upgraded rather than replaced because they were in good condition and there were few other comparable options on the market.[Quote]

I understand the F88's are still in good condition and still an excellent infantry weapon, hence no need to replace but few comparable options?

There must be hundreds of "comparable" assault rifles up for export, from the HK416 to the TAR-21 Tavor, am I missing something?

Been interesting to see what SAW they get to replace the Minimi.

Alfa

[T3ngu]

Originally Posted by gafkiwi

More than likely looking at a heavier grain projectile in 5.56mm. As for the C-9/minimi, Something more along the lines of the 7.62 varient of the same weapon is more likely, Which would allow easier conversion/training.

I have been following the development of the 6.8SPC with interest. My personal rifle in .223 (ruger) can only throw 55-60gr mark due to the barrel twist, but I note that some of the US military ammo (if you beleive the suppliers) comes in 62gr. Any idea of what the Steyr currently throws?

Compare that to the 6.8SPC which purportedly throws around 95-115gr pills. Big difference.

Either way it will be an interesting review.

[gafkiwi]

Originally Posted by Alfacentori

I understand the F88's are still in good condition and still an excellent infantry weapon, hence no need to replace but few comparable options?

There must be hundreds of "comparable" assault rifles up for export, from the HK416 to the TAR-21 Tavor, am I missing something?

Alfa

What you have to remember is none of these "comparable" weapons offers a "Major" advancement over the Steyr that would warrent getting rid of all 13,000 weapons that still work fine(would have to replace all weapons to minimise strain on our small logistical support system), and having to re-equip and retrain with another weapon system. Also only with 3000 to be updated for combat units and other operational units it makes financal sense, seeing as the government probley wouldnt shell out on a whole brand new replacement weapon system.

Rather the 80% answer than no answer at all.

[gafkiwi]

Originally Posted by T3ngu

I have been following the development of the 6.8SPC with interest. My personal rifle in .223 (ruger) can only throw 55-60gr mark due to the barrel twist, but I note that some of the US military ammo (if you beleive the suppliers) comes in 62gr. Any idea of what the Steyr currently throws?

Compare that to the 6.8SPC which purportedly throws around 95-115gr pills. Big difference.

Either way it will be an interesting review.

Will check tommorrow but I think we are running with 62gr in the NZDF at the moment.

[Alfacentori]

Originally Posted by gafkiwi

What you have to remember is none of these "comparable" weapons offers a "Major" advancement over the Steyr that would warrent getting rid of all 13,000 weapons that still work fine(would have to replace all weapons to minimise strain on our small logistical support system), and having to re-equip and retrain with another weapon system. Also only with 3000 to be updated for combat units and other operational units it makes financal sense, seeing as the government probley wouldnt shell out on a whole brand new replacement weapon system.

Rather the 80% answer than no answer at all.

Yeah I can see your point, none offer an advantage over the F88, as I said I understand that but I think that stating that there is little "comparable" available is a little misleading to Mr and Miss NZ citizen.

ADF use the F88 and I see no reason to replace them at any time in the immediate future for the same reason and as always budget is the key factor.


Alfa

[Cdt.Hawkins]

I wonder if Australia will follow nz's pattern.
Doubt it though.A brand new government making such a major change in small arms is a bad idea.

[T3ngu]

Originally Posted by Cdt.Hawkins

I wonder if Australia will follow nz's pattern.
Doubt it though.A brand new government making such a major change in small arms is a bad idea.

Heres some great advice, if it ain't broke, dont fix it. I reformatted my computer today, it wasn't really broke but a quick job took most of the day, dang it when drivers aren't common.

[velvet-cream]

Originally Posted by Cdt.Hawkins

I wonder if Australia will follow nz's pattern.
Doubt it though.A brand new government making such a major change in small arms is a bad idea.

Many of Australia's steyr's already have picatinny rails on them. We also have solutions for attaching NAD and flashlights.

[0497]

The NZDF is pretty small so I don't think they'd be anything dramatic (ie. trend setting decisions).

[T3ngu]

Originally Posted by 0497

The NZDF is pretty small so I don't think they'd be anything dramatic (ie. trend setting decisions).

Yes, but an interesting review none the less.