Resistance hero 'told to leave' - Page 3

Telmar · 10-29-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldat_Américain

Read about him and maybe you'll understand my statement. It's about halfway between a driveby and an opinion.

I have. I've even posted in this forum a view of de Gaulle by Vernon Walters.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ghlight=gaulle

He sure had a rotten personality, and certainly snubbed a lot of very good people, but you've insulted him twice in this thread, and frankly I'm not sure you have anything concrete to build that on.

gosciu555 · 11-01-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derbedeu

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8328282.stm

Not cool on De Gualle's part.

Oh please, this is typical anti-De Gaulle, anti-French nationalism propaganda coming out of the British establishment there. Its not in their interest to have foreign operatives in their country especially from Britain. Its also "not cool" of the British to try to assassinate de Gaull, which they tried on many occasions.

Connaught Ranger · 11-02-2009, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gosciu555

Oh please, this is typical anti-De Gaulle, anti-French nationalism propaganda coming out of the British establishment there. Its not in their interest to have foreign operatives in their country especially from Britain. Its also "not cool" of the British to try to assassinate de Gaull, which they tried on many occasions.

Please feel free to post your sources for your claims.

DPM_Sheep · 11-02-2009, 10:02 AM

He doesn't think Day of the Jackal is factual does he?

Warden · 11-02-2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gosciu555

Oh please, this is typical anti-De Gaulle, anti-French nationalism propaganda coming out of the British establishment there. Its not in their interest to have foreign operatives in their country especially from Britain. Its also "not cool" of the British to try to assassinate de Gaull, which they tried on many occasions.

How about French operatives then?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5887620.ece

KB · 11-03-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telmar

I can imagine de Gaulle saying that, as rgjbloke stated for political reasons.

It was already complex as communists wanted power as well, and were a significant part of the resistance movement. De Gaulle fought for a France that would ASAP be under total French control, and all over the territory (including some areas in which communist resistance movements was heavily armed and politically active).

Only fools can believe that Vichy could have fought on the Allied side. Petain did not believe in democracy and was an antisemite. As for Laval, he never changed his stance regarding his desire for Germany to win.

De Gaulle undertook from 1940 on a very hard task, and started out with very few followers on his side. But because he was there from the beginning, France remained in the "big power" club although it had been severely defeated, and occupied, and a collaborator with nazi Germany.

Those who knew him, and were capable of understanding what he did, such as Eisenhower, respected him.

As for de Gaulle having been rude to Peter Lake, it must have hurt the man.

I take the opportunity to thank him, and I pray he will Rest in Peace.

Well articulated. De Gaulle was a soldier, wounded and captured in WWI. Between the wars he was a leading theorist on the employment of tanks in combat, ranked by some as in the same class as JFC Fuller, Guderian and Patton. As a brigade commander in June 1940 he organized one of the few (if not only) effective armored counterattacks against the Wehrmacht.

His role in 20th century French history is without equal. He established the Free French movement, overcoming not inconsiderable opposition from Churchill and FDR in doing so. He oversaw the rewrite of the French Constitution, which greatly strengthened the role of the President and stabilized the political landscape of France, extricated France from a debilitating struggle in Algeria, supervised the largely peaceful withdrawal from African colonies, the development of France's own nuclear deterrent, and together with Konrad Adenauer brought France and Germany closer together as the anchors of what is now as the EU.

From the perspective of the US and UK, he was undoubtedly difficult at times, but he was always an ally. He was a French patriot and the French leader of the 20th century, IMHO

Atlantic Friend · 11-03-2009, 04:34 PM

The scene takes place in September, 1944, when de Gaulle is trying to establish the legal authority of France's Provisional Government (recognized by the Allies) over the newly liberated parts of the country, including many that are now run semi-independently by various resistance movements, some acknowledging the Provisional Governmen'ts authority, some (including Soviet-sponsored ones) feeling that they can contest it.

In the south-west, the biggest resistance movement was led by "Colonel" Georges Guinguouin, certainly a Resistance hero, but also a Communist who felt no sense of subordination to de Gaulle's Free French movement. There were actually talks among Guingouin's men to establish some sort of Communist Republic in south-western France.

Frankly, it should be no wonder that the first task of the Government de Gaulle led was to replace all the self-appointed military/political leaders by men appointed by the Provisional Government, and that he sent packing all the prominent Allied advisors to these groups and networks.

gosciu555 · 11-04-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connaught Ranger

Please feel free to post your sources for your claims.

I thought this was common knowledge. Nobody disputes the 30 some attempts on De Gaulls life. De Gaulle had obvious enemies across the channel, he defied the will of London and friends, he wanted to withdraw France from NATO command. He also pursued economic dirigism and economic populism which was an anathema to the "Washington concensus." If Timmy and Jane get into a fight at the trailer park and the next thing you know Jane ends up dead, you are you going to blame? You need a source to tell you that? If you look at the political situation, its clear but of course there is no "source" is going to tell you that.

Atlantic Friend · 11-04-2009, 03:11 PM

I don't think there ever was a British-backed attempt on de Gaulle's life. The CIA, on the other hand, had some ties with the OAS even after their attacks on de Gaulle - a grave enough issue, but there again, there has never been any link established between an attempt on the French President's life and the CIA.

I think Occam's razor basically rules against any active Anglo-American involvement in the OAS attempts.

The OAS ended up penetrated by the French SDECE, and was ultimately crushed, its leaders arrested, its safehouses raided. If there had been anything compromising for the US/UK, it would have ended up in the French government's hands. And it would have been made public in some way or other.

Connaught Ranger · 11-04-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gosciu555

I thought this was common knowledge. Nobody disputes the 30 some attempts on De Gaulls life. De Gaulle had obvious enemies across the channel, he defied the will of London and friends, he wanted to withdraw France from NATO command. He also pursued economic dirigism and economic populism which was an anathema to the "Washington concensus."

If Timmy and Jane get into a fight at the trailer park and the next thing you know Jane ends up dead, you are you going to blame? You need a source to tell you that? If you look at the political situation, its clear but of course there is no "source" is going to tell you that.

We are not interested in what you think,

you made claims and were asked to back them up with sources.

Your fancy words and pointless example (Timmy & Jane

)

which clearly shows that you have no idea of what the word evidence

means are pointless.

kevlar308 · 11-08-2009, 11:28 PM

De Gaulle has been known as an insufferable ass for 60 years. Very few people he encountered in Allied Command could stand to be in the same room as him, much less call him anything nice. Read memoirs of those who knew him if you need confirmation. He was also known for saying that France liberated itself in WWII, he tried to directly sabotage NATO because he wasn't getting his ass kissed by people who allowed him to take control of an entire country. He once told LBJ to remove all US soldiers from French soil, and LBJ replied ; Even the ones in the cemetary?; As for the Free French movement, many of them were heroes and brave soldiers, but it is also true to say that many of them were drinking (and training) in England for 4 years while the Resistance was being tortured. In short, despite his accomplishments (some of which are blown out of proportion) his terrible personality and downright aggression and rudeness to everyone around him will always be a part of how he is remembered.

Telmar · 11-09-2009, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevlar308

... he tried to directly sabotage NATO because he wasn't getting his ass kissed by people who allowed him to take control of an entire country....Free French movement, many of them were heroes and brave soldiers, but it is also true to say that many of them were drinking (and training) in England for 4 years while the Resistance was being tortured. ...

With these, you lose all credibility.

Why are the anti de Gaulle types so vulgar?

Connaught Ranger · 11-09-2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevlar308

De Gaulle has been known as an insufferable ass for 60 years. Very few people he encountered in Allied Command could stand to be in the same room as him, much less call him anything nice. Read memoirs of those who knew him if you need confirmation. He was also known for saying that France liberated itself in WWII, he tried to directly sabotage NATO because he wasn't getting his ass kissed by people who allowed him to take control of an entire country. He once told LBJ to remove all US soldiers from French soil, and LBJ replied " Even the ones in the cemetaries?" As for the Free French movement, many of them were heroes and brave soldiers, but it is also true to say that many of them were drinking (and training) in England for 4 years while the Resistance was being tortured. In short, despite his accomplishments (some of which are blown out of proportion) his terrible personality and downright aggression and rudeness to everyone around him will always be a part of how he is remembered.

What a mega retarded idiotic comment, and a gross insult to those who fought and died, and just how were F.F. personel suppossed to get to France, when they had nothing in the way of transport, (ships & planes) or equipment to take the war to the Germans? And you completely disregard the French members of the S.O.E. along with their British counterparts, both men and women who voluntarily went to France pre-D-Day to help organize the Resistance against the Germans.

Only in your tiny mind.

Connaught Ranger.

kevlar308 · 11-10-2009, 12:46 PM

I didn't consider anything I said to be vulgar, maybe you should hang out in church and stay off the internet if you can't handle low level curse words. I did NOT insult anyone. Especially the Jedburg teams, Commandos or SOE, Them and the Resistance is who I was comparing the bulk of the Free French to. I did not accuse them of cowardice or shirking. I merely stated that they were not "in the fight" for 4 straight years, like the Resistance was in France and many other countries. As for De Gaulle, even great men and heroes can have major personality flaws. A lot of people didn't like Patton, for example. Richard Marchenko has plenty of detractors. Why? because they were/are exceedingly difficult to get along with. As for my tiny mind, Connaught Ranger, at least I don't spend my day starting internet fights like a 12 year old.

Connaught Ranger · 11-10-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevlar308

I didn't consider anything I said to be vulgar, maybe you should hang out in church and stay off the internet if you can't handle low level curse words. I did NOT insult anyone. Especially the Jedburg teams, Commandos or SOE, Them and the Resistance is who I was comparing the bulk of the Free French to. I did not accuse them of cowardice or shirking. I merely stated that they were not "in the fight" for 4 straight years, like the Resistance was in France and many other countries. As for De Gaulle, even great men and heroes can have major personality flaws. A lot of people didn't like Patton, for example. Richard Marchenko has plenty of detractors. Why? because they were/are exceedingly difficult to get along with. As for my tiny mind, Connaught Ranger, at least I don't spend my day starting internet fights like a 12 year old.

S h i t for brains, if you are going to quote yourself then quote it ALL in the original context:-

Quote:

but it is also true to say that many of them were drinking (and training) in England for 4 years while the Resistance was being tortured.

you conveniently left out the "drinking" bit in attempts to justify yourself and your tiny brain, and in seeing that the "drinking" bit was the first part of the comment gives us a good idea on your way of thinking.

As for Patton he was not to figure in European Politics, where as DeGaulle was prominent in French Politics.

and as for ""Rogue Warrior", "Demo Dick", "Shark Man of the Delta" "The Geek" Marchenko, WTF has that got to do with a thread that concerns France, he was no way in the same league as De Gaulle.

As I said before your comments are a direct insult to the memory those who served and those who died in service to the Allies in that period.

11-08-2009, 11:28 PM	#41
kevlar308 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3	De Gaulle has been known as an insufferable ass for 60 years. Very few people he encountered in Allied Command could stand to be in the same room as him, much less call him anything nice. Read memoirs of those who knew him if you need confirmation. He was also known for saying that France liberated itself in WWII, he tried to directly sabotage NATO because he wasn't getting his ass kissed by people who allowed him to take control of an entire country. He once told LBJ to remove all US soldiers from French soil, and LBJ replied ; Even the ones in the cemetary?; As for the Free French movement, many of them were heroes and brave soldiers, but it is also true to say that many of them were drinking (and training) in England for 4 years while the Resistance was being tortured. In short, despite his accomplishments (some of which are blown out of proportion) his terrible personality and downright aggression and rudeness to everyone around him will always be a part of how he is remembered. Last edited by kevlar308; 11-10-2009 at 12:42 PM.

11-02-2009, 10:02 AM	#34
DPM_Sheep Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 342	He doesn't think Day of the Jackal is factual does he?

11-03-2009, 04:34 PM	#37
Atlantic Friend Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Milgram Experiment byproduct Age: 39 Posts: 6,296	The scene takes place in September, 1944, when de Gaulle is trying to establish the legal authority of France's Provisional Government (recognized by the Allies) over the newly liberated parts of the country, including many that are now run semi-independently by various resistance movements, some acknowledging the Provisional Governmen'ts authority, some (including Soviet-sponsored ones) feeling that they can contest it. In the south-west, the biggest resistance movement was led by "Colonel" Georges Guinguouin, certainly a Resistance hero, but also a Communist who felt no sense of subordination to de Gaulle's Free French movement. There were actually talks among Guingouin's men to establish some sort of Communist Republic in south-western France. Frankly, it should be no wonder that the first task of the Government de Gaulle led was to replace all the self-appointed military/political leaders by men appointed by the Provisional Government, and that he sent packing all the prominent Allied advisors to these groups and networks.

11-04-2009, 03:11 PM	#39
Atlantic Friend Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Milgram Experiment byproduct Age: 39 Posts: 6,296	I don't think there ever was a British-backed attempt on de Gaulle's life. The CIA, on the other hand, had some ties with the OAS even after their attacks on de Gaulle - a grave enough issue, but there again, there has never been any link established between an attempt on the French President's life and the CIA. I think Occam's razor basically rules against any active Anglo-American involvement in the OAS attempts. The OAS ended up penetrated by the French SDECE, and was ultimately crushed, its leaders arrested, its safehouses raided. If there had been anything compromising for the US/UK, it would have ended up in the French government's hands. And it would have been made public in some way or other.

11-10-2009, 12:46 PM	#44
kevlar308 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3	I didn't consider anything I said to be vulgar, maybe you should hang out in church and stay off the internet if you can't handle low level curse words. I did NOT insult anyone. Especially the Jedburg teams, Commandos or SOE, Them and the Resistance is who I was comparing the bulk of the Free French to. I did not accuse them of cowardice or shirking. I merely stated that they were not "in the fight" for 4 straight years, like the Resistance was in France and many other countries. As for De Gaulle, even great men and heroes can have major personality flaws. A lot of people didn't like Patton, for example. Richard Marchenko has plenty of detractors. Why? because they were/are exceedingly difficult to get along with. As for my tiny mind, Connaught Ranger, at least I don't spend my day starting internet fights like a 12 year old.