PC Indulgence = Death at Fort Hood

[CantGetRight]

Originally Posted by Rugal09

We're not talking about defeating a religion. We're talking about defeating an insidious element within religion that is inconsistent with today's ideals of progress, modernity, and open mindedness. If the members of a particular religious philosophy cannot control, change or voice a loud enough opposition against such misuse and improriety of their own religion AND if they don't appreciate others complaining about it, then what should one do??

BRAVO!

Something I should of said in my last post, maybe he was just a jacked up dude, and religion was an excuse he used, we in the US do have a propensity for rampages/shootings. But, I doubt it.

I wonder what fallout this will have on the military though. We already have multiple surveys before deploying and after coming home questioning our mental health. The Army is all about suicide prevention now and the things we're "trained" on would have told one to sound the alarm on this guy. Someone dropped the ball.

One thing that came to my mind trying to wrap my head around why this could happen. He must have listened to quite a few soldiers telling not so pleasant stories of things which dug into their minds and conscience. Just in my limited view of the Army experience, there are some terrible terrible things that have happened. US soldiers which by accident, by doctrine, by fear, by anger, by sheer malice, have done horrible things. As a Muslim, some of these stories probably struck him personally.

[Muzungu]

Indian army is the finest example of multi cultural, mutil religion, multi race, multi language etc etc.

we have hindus, muslims, sikhs, christians, jews serving in the indian army.

we have religion based units in the indian army.

Hindus taking orders from muslim officers, muslims taking orders from sikh officers.

the first officer to loose his life in Kargil war against islamic republic of pakistan was an indian muslim, Capt Haneefuddin.

we had few cases of army being used against religious places like operation blue star on Golden temple, the sikh's holy shrine. the operation was led by a Sikh. though some sikh units in the indian army revolted and shot dead few soldiers, they were brought under control.

we have proper integration of religion into indian army and dont have religion based incidents.

stress related shootings of fellow soldiers in the indian army do take place, but not related to religion!

[the_13th_redneck]

Originally Posted by California Joe

From what I've read and heard about this joker it looks to me as if...

-He was happy enough to get six years of high quality training in his vocation at the militaries expense.
-He was never very "pro military".
-He was deeply effected by the stories told to him by his PTSD patients.
-He was a coward that did not want to be deployed in harms way.
-He used his religion as a crutch or an excuse.
-The closer he got to deployment the more he retreated inwardly and the more radicalized he got.
-He was allowed to basically meltdown for months in front of other officers, enlisted members and superiors and no one thought to raise an alarm that this guy might not be wrapped too tight and could become a threat to himself and others.

JMO.

That part I bolded is what I think was the ultimate reason why this guy went bezerk.

[Arnie100]

No, he was a coward.

[martinexsquaddie]

he was going to spend a year at bastion Doubt he'd ever leave the fence.
bloke wandering around the base in a dish dash.
surely somebody should have gone huh?
He'd spent 8 years in a chusty 9 to 5 the idea of going into "harms way" which bastion would have seen to him.

my Shrine to Jodie foster and holding conversations with my rifle got me to interviews with trick cyclists first one got really excited. The more senior one understood squaddie humour. privates have loads of people around them and able to shout at them.
medical majors don't and if he is not going his boss is going to find someone else which is a bit harder than finding a spare private

[KoTeMoRe]

Originally Posted by CantGetRight

yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around, because its so frowned upon, to call any group of people on their problems

only other social example I can think of off the top of my head...

You cant pinpoint blacks for having problems with education, crime and children out of wedlock, even though its true, the problem will never be fixed when people are to cowardly to even identify it

Here we have a worldwide parallel to that example, only thousands of lives have been lost. Islam has a propensity above other religions for violence. PERIOD

yet its called the "religion of peace"

Its history is ignored, the perpetrators are publicly denounced and Muslim speakers question their faith as Muslims. All point towards blaming the individual and clearing the name of Islam. Yet if you study the Koran, study history, if a person takes the time to educate themselves, this is an all too repetitive pattern. The reasons have changed slightly over centuries but the core of violence remains the same, and the blood spilt is still the same color.

In my opinion, religions evolve, Christianity certainly has, to a point of slowly dissolving as people look to education and material lives in the Western world. Without meriting the pros or cons of that, it is happening is it not? Islam is several hundred years behind, just as it is several hundred years younger. The society that breeds it is also behind. One difference again with Islam and Christianity is that one holy book DOES openly call for violence against all non-_______. while one holy book does not. The Koran not only calls for but glorifies violence against all non believers. Noone can say I'm pulling this out of thin air, nor am I pulling it out of context.

I have no idea what most Muslims think of these verses, I would think most are like modern Christians, who have not, and probably never will read their holy book. But the "extremists" who repeatedly spill blood in the name of Allah, do read the Koran, and feel justified by it.

I think Islam fosters violence, period. It has for centuries. It breeds violence and hatred in every part of the globe its represented. The Middle East, Europe, Asia, Africa and even here in North America.

No I'm not calling all Muslims terrorists, they're obviously not. But disproportionate amount sure do rise from your ranks.

Something I should have said earlier

Everyone who lives in the US probably knows at least one "holy roller", Christians who are constantly trying to spread the word, inviting everyone to bible study, frowning on most of todays pop culture, tucking in their shirt, saying darn and oh my, etc etc. Thats about as extreme as Christians seem to get these days. Muslims who give their life completely to the religion however, seem to take quite a different turn.

I feel like most Western Muslims either don't truly read the Koran just like most Christians don't read the Bible, OR, they dismiss the verses calling for violence as a metaphor for something else, or as something abrogated. This guy may very well have taken it all seriously.

We had a "ideology of peace" that was supported by two of the most brutal regimes that history has known. That didn't made all communists bloodsuckers or baby eaters. You can have muslim zealots, among them those that embrace suffism, whose daily jihad is being above everything they see as unislamic. Turkish people that I know have this propension to come out as fairly uninterested from religious bigotry. Despite some very special statements from the current Turkish head of state over assimilation.

Now this changes with the very way those who go berserk are raised. In most cases the converted are "lumpenproletariat", thus easily turned in and available.

But the others, those who "infect" them are usually as hateful of their minions than of the west. That betrays a far more simple and individual frustration than this whole "Holy War" non-sense. They're jealous of what they see as the "Western" ability to influence every decision and outcome in this planet. Even incidentally.

Just imagine this some filthy pork eater whose earnings don't exceed 20 000 USD just broke the back of their slot machine by being eligible for a mortgage.

As for being extreme and Christianity, well Christians are actually the most powerful group in this planet. The most powerful nation in this dirtball relies heavily to christianity. Another powerful nation sees its President and PM turn regularly to masses and its population being increasingly appealed by the Holy Cross (at least externally). Both these nations have in their recent past dealt with Muslim opponents and have crushed them in a tragic way.

Edit: On the other hand I found it utterly ironical that he was taken down by a woman. That much for the inherent machismo on both religion, police forces and armed forces.

[hank2222]

most of the muslin i know here in texas is so shock and outrage by the shooting at ft hood that they feel that it going to bring more trouble for them here in the United States ..

they feel that the world views them only as bombers and mass murders of the world ..instead of people who have childern and want there childern to grow up in a world that to all the hopes and dreams of the good life that we have here in the United States of America

i date a women who was born in Iran and moved here in the late 80s time frame after they got out of iran ..they are the most careing and giveing people that you will ever met in you life..

the father have allways thought it was funny that i did the old fashioned way of comeing to the house to ask to date his daughter ..for she is 36.years old and single with a child ..she a doctor here in the area of texas i live on ..she thinks it funny at time that a guy who grew up lds family and i know how to do all the old custom from the middle east when asking her father to be allowed to date her and knows about the Koran and can tell you passage out of it along with the bible also ..

for in there house i am treated like a long lost son in the family ..i speak a little bit of Farsi ..i do the basic of asking them for a glass of water or tea and something to eat ..but they also speak german and french and spanish in the house for drinner time is a wonderfull time with the brother and there wives and other family members talking in diff langauage around the table ..


tonight our drinner table talk tonight was the shooting and they are really deeply hurt by the way this person did to the people there ..for they and few over the old guest at the table feels so badly for they say this county has given them so much and it ask very little in return ..that someone can do this to our people ..for they it end of times someone said at the table ..

[Laworkerbee]

Originally Posted by West Texican

Muslim victims of Muslim terrorism throws the concept of "jihad against the infidels" out the window. It's not "kill everyone who does not submit to Allah", it's "kill everyone who does not submit to me". Islam is defamed daily by these few who use Islam just as a parasite uses its victim.

Sorry but you need to get acquainted with the practice of takfir. the declaring of fellow Muslims to be apostates who can be killed at well.

In the desert before there was a Saudi state Ibn Addel Wahhab's Bedouin converts, pillaging non-Wahhabi neighbors stopped being simple banditry and turned into God's work once the practice of takfir was established.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Originally Posted by KoTeMoRe

Edit: On the other hand I found it utterly ironical that he was taken down by a woman. That much for the inherent machismo on both religion, police forces and armed forces.

That was the initial thought that came across my mind.

Other thoughts, similar to the ones I had after Columbine, go unsaid because the ban stick loometh.

[Wimbly]

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

That part I bolded is what I think was the ultimate reason why this guy went bezerk.

You're saying he got 2nd hand PTSD?

One thing that really annoys me about this incident is how people are claiming his religion doesn't matter. Even though it clearly played a part in his ultimate decision to massacre people. However, if a white guy shoots a bunch of black people while screaming racial slurs, the same people would instantly call it a racist hate crime (rightfully so). Thats a pretty major inconsistency that I'd like to see explained. It seems like motivation is only a legitimate factor if it fits a certain narrative.

[Ordie]

Originally Posted by Wimbly

You're saying he got 2nd hand PTSD?

One thing that really annoys me about this incident is how people are claiming his religion doesn't matter. Even though it clearly played a part in his ultimate decision to massacre people. However, if a white guy shoots a bunch of black people while screaming racial slurs, the same people would instantly call it a racist hate crime (rightfully so). Thats a pretty major inconsistency that I'd like to see explained. It seems like motivation is only a legitimate factor if it fits a certain narrative.

Mental health workers have an emotionally draining proffession. I'm sure after a while one would question what is normal. In reading more about this Majors life, it shows the symptoms of the typical socially ostracized loner common with many "postal" shooters.

Religion was a crutch and used to rationalize his actions just as you can rationalize any act by prooftexting any holy book.

Much of the attention will be focused on the Chain of Command and whether the Majors superiors were made aware of his conditions or ingored him.

[the_13th_redneck]

I think his religion and ethnicity had something to do with it but wasn't the complete story.
I don't think he got 2nd hand PTSD per se, but assuming you are American, let's say you were a citizen of ... let's say Germany back in the 30's and every day you heard your patients refer to Americans in the worst sort of way. You know, stuff like, "ain't worth the dirt under my toenails," "I want to kill every last one of them" etc. Eventually you'll think that enough is enough.
At the end of the day, his unit's leadership should have KNOWN that this was going to be a problem. On top of that apparently he wasn't acting very normal either. I'm not excusing the dude, he deserves to be executed but it's not too hard to see how he might have gotten to that point.

[California Joe]

^That was what I was getting at. Not 2nd hand PTSD, but a warped view of the war effort. Regular civilian Psychiatrists listen to people with eating disorders and cheating spouses. This guy listen to the detailed and probably brutal nightmares of returning soldiers day after day after day.

He obviously was scared sh*tless of even being there, he was already in full victim mode with his constant complaints about anti Muslim sentiments etc even though his attitude probably provoked them.

So it sounds to me that his training and his understanding of psychiatry did nothing to help him with his own personal demons so he retreated to his religion. Then he combined that religion with the radicalized ramblings of clerics on the internet and the stories of death and destruction in the "homeland" and arrived at his conclusion.

Now you can claim that it's because of his Muslim faith or you can look at it objectively and see that he used that faith to justify his own failings as a doctor and a soldier and a man. If some 4th generation American Irish Catholic started freaking the f*ck out and claiming he was the Archangel Michael whilst shooting people they would just say the guy went mental. Period.

[Connaught Ranger]

Originally Posted by CantGetRight

yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around, because its so frowned upon, to call any group of people on their problems

only other social example I can think of off the top of my head...

You cant pinpoint blacks for having problems with education, crime and children out of wedlock, even though its true, the problem will never be fixed when people are to cowardly to even identify it

Here we have a worldwide parallel to that example, only thousands of lives have been lost. Islam has a propensity above other religions for violence. PERIOD

yet its called the "religion of peace"

Its history is ignored, the perpetrators are publicly denounced and Muslim speakers question their faith as Muslims. All point towards blaming the individual and clearing the name of Islam. Yet if you study the Koran, study history, if a person takes the time to educate themselves, this is an all too repetitive pattern. The reasons have changed slightly over centuries but the core of violence remains the same, and the blood spilt is still the same color.

In my opinion, religions evolve, Christianity certainly has, to a point of slowly dissolving as people look to education and material lives in the Western world. Without meriting the pros or cons of that, it is happening is it not? Islam is several hundred years behind, just as it is several hundred years younger. The society that breeds it is also behind. One difference again with Islam and Christianity is that one holy book DOES openly call for violence against all non-_______. while one holy book does not. The Koran not only calls for but glorifies violence against all non believers. Noone can say I'm pulling this out of thin air, nor am I pulling it out of context.

I have no idea what most Muslims think of these verses, I would think most are like modern Christians, who have not, and probably never will read their holy book. But the "extremists" who repeatedly spill blood in the name of Allah, do read the Koran, and feel justified by it.

I think Islam fosters violence, period. It has for centuries. It breeds violence and hatred in every part of the globe its represented. The Middle East, Europe, Asia, Africa and even here in North America.

No I'm not calling all Muslims terrorists, they're obviously not. But disproportionate amount sure do rise from your ranks.

Something I should have said earlier

Everyone who lives in the US probably knows at least one "holy roller", Christians who are constantly trying to spread the word, inviting everyone to bible study, frowning on most of todays pop culture, tucking in their shirt, saying darn and oh my, etc etc. Thats about as extreme as Christians seem to get these days. Muslims who give their life completely to the religion however, seem to take quite a different turn.



I feel like most Western Muslims either don't truly read the Koran just like most Christians don't read the Bible, OR, they dismiss the verses calling for violence as a metaphor for something else, or as something abrogated. This guy may very well have taken it all seriously.

So you managed to have a rant against Afro-Americans and Muslims in your post, you are one narrow-minded bigot sonny. The Klan must be proud of you.

Connaught Ranger.

[HOLLiS]

What seems to have worked for me;

Instead of trying to figure out something that we cannot figure out look at it this way, "Evil people will do evil things, because they are evil. Good people need a reason to do something evil, evil people do not need a reason."

The perp here deserves no empathy, no understanding, no compassion, nothing but a execution.

It wasn't that he was poorly potty trained, his teachers did not give him enough good stars, etc etc ect, he was just evil.

He was a single person who acted according to his own evil nature and murdered and wounded a lot of good people.

The fault was the evil in him, nothing more.


(yeah kind of a over simplification, but it seems to work)