The 'Calibre' argument - a British Perspective

[CMN]

A survey of more than 50 servicemen who have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan concluded that the 5.56mm calibre rounds used by British soldiers 'tailed off' after 300 metres yet half of all Helmand firefights are fought between 300 and 900 metres.


It came as the wife of a British soldier who died in hospital weeks after being injured in a blast in Afghanistan paid tribute to her "best friend and wonderful husband".


The study, co-written by Nicholas Drummond, a strategy consultant and ex-Welsh Guards officer, described British soldiers' rifles as "not much more useful than a peashooter".



Taliban marksmen use powerful 7.62mm ammo for their AK47 machine guns, according to a report of the study in The Sun.



Mr Drummond told the newspaper that a British soldier couldn't attack the Taliban "with any certainty that if he hits the enemy he will kill or incapacitate him."



The study claims the ammunition is easily stopped by car doors. It added that Javelin anti-tank missiles, costing £100,000 each, are often fired at lone gunmen. Only one in four British, US and German troops has been issued with guns using 7.62mm ammunition.



The report calls for guns that take larger ammunition to replace all standard-issue SA80 rifles, which many believe were exposed as inadequate in Iraq in 2003.



The Ministry of Defence told the newspaper the 5.56mm calibre rounds used by United States and other Nato allies are "proven to be both accurate and powerful."

I think the article could have expressed the quite serious level of debate surrounding this topic on the other side of the pond, but whatever.

Time to dust off the SLRs?

SOURCE

[Elbs]

The study claims the ammunition is easily stopped by car doors. It added that Javelin anti-tank missiles, costing £100,000 each, are often fired at lone gunmen. Only one in four British, US and German troops has been issued with guns using 7.62mm ammunition.

That sounds a bit far fetched, since 5.56mm can go cleanly through the doors of a car...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4.htm

[Royal]

We went through this argument when the SLR was phased out in the late 80s.

I worked with several of the guys who fought at Top Malo and complained about the lack of stopping power seen with their M16s in that engagement. As an impressionable sprog who trained on the SLR I was very much in the 7.62 camp.

That said, I was never in a situation (bar sniping) where 5.56 was a problem that would have been overcome by 7.62 rifle fire - fast air on the other hand should be carried by every infantryman

[snapper036]

Here's and interesting perspective written on another site:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=136507.html

[CMN]

lol, good old arrse.

Choice contributions...

Well one things for sure, if you were 600 yds downrange of me and I was chucking 7.62 rounds in your direction, you'd be left in no doubt I was cross with you even if I was missing.

Who were you firing at six hundred metres away in Belfast, the Luftwaffe?

I'm trying to see if the report quoted has turned up anywhere on the web yet, but as of now haven't seen anything.

[Difool]

The british tested a 6.25x43 bullet in about 1970. They gave up the plan in favour for the 5,56x45. Maybe it's worth a second look?
At least the US run tests with the 6.8x43 calibre as a possible allrounder.
But one thing is for sure: You won't find a calibre fitting for every purpose.

[DPM_Sheep]

I would've really liked to have seen what the old .280 could do in service. I think we missed a trick there.

[USMC29]

So by tailed off, what do they mean? Cause I know I can land a round in the black at 500 yds

[rhino]

a powerfull 7.62 out of AK at 600m? am I missing something?

[rgjbloke]

I can discuss the merits of 7.62 and 5.56. Some of the pro's and con's are obvious in both camp's but having never fired the 5.56, I'm not qualified to tell you if the calibre works or not but what about this little beauty. I saw it on ARRSE. A bullpup in 7.62.

Kel-Tec RFB 7.62mm bullpup rifle

Kel-Tec displayed their new RFB 7.62×51mm (.308) bullpup rifle at SHOT Show. SMGLee took some great photos.

With suppressor, nice!

Wikipedia has this to say about the rifle:

The Kel-Tec RFB High Efficiency Rifle (Rifle, Forward-ejection, Bullpup) is a gas-operated semi-automatic rifle with a tilting breechblock locking mechanism, manufactured by Kel-Tec Industries of Florida. It loads the 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) cartridge and uses metric FAL magazines. The rifle uses a patented forward-ejection system via a tube placed over the barrel that ejects the spent case forwards, over the handguard of the rifle.
The rifle is a forward ejecting semi-automatic firearm chambered in 7.62 mm NATO (.308 Winchester), utilizing a short-stroke gas piston. To avoid the sloppy trigger pull typical of bullpup style firearms, the RFB utilizes a floating linkage bar between the sear and the hammer, allowing the sear to remain above the trigger. The weapon is fully ambidextrous, much in the style of the French FAMAS bullpup assault rifle. The RFB accepts FN FAL style magazines, and is delivered without iron sights. A mil-spec Picatinny rail is standard.

Here is a video of the rifle, clearly showing the forward ejection.

Kel-Tec plans to offer three different four versions each with a different barrel length:

• Carbine (18″),
• Sporter (24″),
• Target (32″ heavy barrel, or 26″ stainless steel barrel)

The rifle is expected this quarter (1st quarter 2008) in the forth quarter, see the comments by dogon1013.
More images after the jump.

Click to enlarge the images.

[IDF_TANKER]

Quite a punch it has.

[scttgillies]

There is bugger all wrong with 5.56, the problem is that musketry,(theres a word for the old and bold) has taken second place in general to othere MATTS, and now it is coming to the forefront. The rifle is good, does what it says in the tin and works. I feel more time is needed on the range, and not doin sh**ty poxy shoots but work on accurate shooting.

[IDF_TANKER]

All these discussions are rooted in the inherent transience of human experience... There was a reason to replace 7.62 by 5.56 - heavy weapons and heavy ammunition, at what was considered a small price, the reduction in stopping power. The generations of soldiers of the "7.62 age" passed, the memory of 7.62 "evils" were lost and now we want it back... Give an average grunt, who complains about 5.56, the FN FAL, or even some modern weapon of same caliber and the same amount of ammunition, for a month of foot patrols and operations and see what he has to say afterwards...

[Difool]

Originally Posted by rhino

a powerfull 7.62 out of AK at 600m? am I missing something?

Velocity and Energy at 600 yards (varies with ammo and gun):
5.56x45 1350 fps 310 ft-lbs
7.62x39 1080 fps 370 ft-lbs
6.8 SPC 1300 fps 440 ft-lbs
6.5 Grendel 1650 fps 650 ft-lbs
7.62x51 1500 fps 900 ft-lbs
Just to get a image.

Originally Posted by IDF_TANKER

All these discussions are rooted in the inherent transience of human experience... There was a reason to replace 7.62 by 5.56 - heavy weapons and heavy ammunition, at what was considered a small price, the reduction in stopping power. The generations of soldiers of the "7.62 age" passed, the memory of 7.62 "evils" were lost and now we want it back... Give an average grunt, who complains about 5.56, the FN FAL, or even some modern weapon of same caliber and the same amount of ammunition, for a month of foot patrols and operations and see what he has to say afterwards...

Mountain areas require heavier bullets for long distance shots. I know it from hunting. It's just the same.
Of course lighter ammo has got the advantage that you can carry more. That's even more important in the Mountains, where you have to walk long distances in difficult terrain.
But that doesn't change the need for higher calibres, but requires new logistical concepts and tactics.

[tangosix]

Originally Posted by IDF_TANKER

All these discussions are rooted in the inherent transience of human experience... There was a reason to replace 7.62 by 5.56 - heavy weapons and heavy ammunition, at what was considered a small price, the reduction in stopping power. The generations of soldiers of the "7.62 age" passed, the memory of 7.62 "evils" were lost and now we want it back... Give an average grunt, who complains about 5.56, the FN FAL, or even some modern weapon of same caliber and the same amount of ammunition, for a month of foot patrols and operations and see what he has to say afterwards...

Thats what the rifle sling is for. 7.62 is really not that heavy if you carry your rifle correctly. I'd rather be able to reach my enemy from a longer distant than being able to run towards him because I got a lighter rifle.