Camouflage - past and future

Shar. · 08-14-2005, 03:51 PM

So I've been wondering for some time about the camouflage..

Let's start with the beginning, for example world war2, all the camouflage 'suits' were in just one colour. Green/beige.. I dont know exactly when (maybe some one else knows?

) but then the whole 'style' kinda changed, it became camouflage with a pattern..
So my question is are there any reasons for changing the style from just one colour to a colour with pattern (woodland) ?
Is it becuase the former camo didnt worked out anymore? Or is it because they developed a new/better camo? (not that the current one more better is then the one we used to have in ww2..)

Well, now there is another new camo, the digi camo (if I'm correct?

) thats going to replace the camo we used to have? (the camo that the netherlands still has)

Alpha Leader · 08-14-2005, 04:30 PM

Maybe this site would give some answers.
http://www.henrikc.dk/camouflage/history.asp

http://college.hmco.com/history/read...camouflage.htm

Here is alot of facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage

Dalleer · 08-14-2005, 04:38 PM

Well you know, there were camouflage suits in WWII as well. Certainly the first ones were designed/used by the Germans in that conflict. Although from what I read from a certain book about camouflage a while ago it stated that several of the bigger European countries had some sorts of projects build inside their militaries after WWI that were aimed towards designing/researching camouflage patterns and their overall use.

Certainly there were some camouflaged fatigues used by the American forces along with the Germans in WWII. Some have stated that the "Duck hunter" - pattern that was seen more in use by the marines in the pacific would have been in use in the D-day landings. However , th use of this camouflage pattern was quickly put on hold in the European theatre since it caused some friendly-fire incidents , apparently. So in other words , US GI's wearing them were mistaken for Germans.

We all know that sometimes regular OD/olive green etc. BDU's work better than camouflaged ones. I would assume that the main reason for the use of camouflaged fatigues , BDU's etc. after WWII would simply be explained with new innovation. Camouflaged fatigues were something new and in some cases better than the old battle gear in solid colors.

And as a personal note I doubt that the Netherlands are going to go away from their own very cool DPM pattern for awhile. Since , afterall , there are many "traditional" (non-digital patterns) that work just as well as the newer digital ones such as MARPAT and CADPAT. Although they do seem to have a slight advantage in some cases.

privatecowboy · 08-14-2005, 06:18 PM

As others have said experience drives evolution. Certainly it is plain to see that camouflage is constantly evolving, as research , development and science allows it to do so.

It is fair to credit axis Germany for their use of various camouflage as far back as WW2. However there certainly was recognition from other armies that camo patterns could be useful in a tactical sense. You only have to look at American Airborne pathfinders applying painted swathes to their M42 jumpsuits to brake up their outline as a primative form of camouflage.Other notable examples being the Dension smocks of the British Airbourne and the pacific theatre Marine camo.

I would like to compare the evolution of camouflage with that of military firearms, experience in the field and the actual evolution of combat itself dictating the pace of change and development.

Shar. · 08-15-2005, 09:18 AM

Thanks for the sites Alpha Leader!

and others thanks for the explanation

but why are the americans using marpat, why not stick with the camo they used to have? What has the digi camo that the older 'version' didnt had? Or.. is it just because (like privatecowboy already said) they are always evolving and always find a new sort of camo that just looks nice (?) or works better (?)

CONSERVATIVE53 · 08-15-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar.

Thanks for the sites Alpha Leader!

and others thanks for the explanation

but why are the americans using marpat, why not stick with the camo they used to have? What has the digi camo that the older 'version' didnt had? Or.. is it just because (like privatecowboy already said) they are always evolving and always find a new sort of camo that just looks nice (?) or works better (?)

Only the Marines are using MARPAT. The old woodland pattern was too easy to pick out because it had very large shapes, plus it had too much dark brown and tan. When you have a big pattern and you are standing in front of an intricate background, you will stand out. MARPAT is a better balance of shape and color.

Shar. · 08-15-2005, 07:20 PM

So only the marines are using MARPAT now? (hmm thats why its called MAR-pat? marines pattern?)
didnt know that until now

But why did they choose the 'squares' -digital-camo
has it also to do something with night vision devices or maybe something else? (thats why they've chosen all these squares)

Quote:

The old woodland pattern was too easy to pick out because it had very large shapes, plus it had too much dark brown and tan.

but ofcourse that depends on which area your in

CONSERVATIVE53 · 08-15-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar.

So only the marines are using MARPAT now? (hmm thats why its called MAR-pat? marines pattern?)
didnt know that until now

But why did they choose the 'squares' -digital-camo
has it also to do something with night vision devices or maybe something else? (thats why they've chosen all these squares)

Quote:

The old woodland pattern was too easy to pick out because it had very large shapes, plus it had too much dark brown and tan.

but ofcourse that depends on which area your in

The color dyes they use in MARPAT are not easily seen through night vision, it doesn't matter too much what the pattern looks like as long as you have the right infared properties. The little pixel's simply blur your image better than a larger pattern. The army uses ACUPAT. Short for "Army Combat Uniform PAT." Here is a history of digital camo. The americans were actually first to use digital camo, they experimented it on vehicles.

http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm

Shar. · 08-18-2005, 07:12 PM

alright, so there was a little truth in why they choose the digi camo, because of the night vision

thanks for the link!

CONSERVATIVE53 · 08-18-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar.

alright, so there was a little truth in why they choose the digi camo, because of the night vision

thanks for the link!

Ok maybe a little

Here is a great link to what future camouflage might look like.

http://www.hyperstealth.com/specam/

BiZ · 08-18-2005, 10:44 PM

Hyperstealth is the funniest website I've seen since anti-rice.com ......

Quote:

These Camouflage patterns were developed using proprietary graphics techniques known as Camouflage Designated Enhanced Fractal Geometry

Quote:

All fractals are derived from a 'positive feedback loop' when the output is fed back into the system as input and looped over and over.

You can make any pattern look 'workable' when you draw it in paint and put it over a background you drew in paint as well........

Quote:

Recently the new Canadian Camouflage pattern CADPAT (Left) and the U.S. Marines pattern MARPAT (Right) based on the Canadian developed pattern

Is the US invented the digital camo pattern.doesn't the guy contradict himself with the above statement further into the site?

I can't even use photshop and I could do better than this......

Digital paintwork on vehicles would be very expensive for not only the paint but the hours spent painting it..and continual touch-ups etc.....and what for? Like the "dazzle" paiting of ships/aircraft in WW2, it was a good idea and had some bonuses..but the cost of painting etc compared to the benifits actually gained are not great enough....

CONSERVATIVE53 · 08-18-2005, 10:50 PM

Give em a break, they're a small company and they don't have the money to print every pattern. Some of their patterns are being tried by all branches of our military so I guess they ain't so bad. I really like their stuff.

BiZ · 08-18-2005, 11:20 PM

Sorry, I'm just excited after reading:

HyperStealth® Biotechnology Corp. has developed the Passive Negative Ion Generator™

Wonder what the quality of the uniforms are like? Fair enough the King of Jordan loves them........but what about actual soldiers in real environments?

CONSERVATIVE53 · 08-18-2005, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiZ

Sorry, I'm just excited after reading:

HyperStealth® Biotechnology Corp. has developed the Passive Negative Ion Generator™

Wonder what the quality of the uniforms are like? Fair enough the King of Jordan loves them........but what about actual soldiers in real environments?

From what I've heard, they really like them, and they don't fade as much as other uniforms.

Shar. · 08-19-2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CONSERVATIVE53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar.

alright, so there was a little truth in why they choose the digi camo, because of the night vision

thanks for the link!

Ok maybe a little

Here is a great link to what future camouflage might look like.

http://www.hyperstealth.com/specam/

thats almost invisible!

but in real it always looks different, so I gues we cant rely on this pic.. they should test it with real persons

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiZ

Digital paintwork on vehicles would be very expensive for not only the paint but the hours spent painting it..and continual touch-ups etc.....and what for? Like the "dazzle" paiting of ships/aircraft in WW2, it was a good idea and had some bonuses..but the cost of painting etc compared to the benifits actually gained are not great enough....

it is a nice idea tho, digital paintwork on the vehicles !

you can make the vehicles even more invisible then they already are (but if it's necessary? the current camo works also fine)
but ofcourse yea, it would cost too much.. well but you never know, maybe in the future they might consider it.

08-14-2005, 03:51 PM	#1
Shar. Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,005	Camouflage - past and future So I've been wondering for some time about the camouflage.. Let's start with the beginning, for example world war2, all the camouflage 'suits' were in just one colour. Green/beige.. I dont know exactly when (maybe some one else knows? ) but then the whole 'style' kinda changed, it became camouflage with a pattern.. So my question is are there any reasons for changing the style from just one colour to a colour with pattern (woodland) ? Is it becuase the former camo didnt worked out anymore? Or is it because they developed a new/better camo? (not that the current one more better is then the one we used to have in ww2..) Well, now there is another new camo, the digi camo (if I'm correct? ) thats going to replace the camo we used to have? (the camo that the netherlands still has)

08-14-2005, 04:30 PM	#2
Alpha Leader Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: in the forrest,amongst small people hmnahmna Age: 40 Posts: 1,406	Maybe this site would give some answers. http://www.henrikc.dk/camouflage/history.asp http://college.hmco.com/history/read...camouflage.htm Here is alot of facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage

08-14-2005, 04:38 PM	#3
Dalleer Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: The days of Disco and Pink Flamingos Posts: 2,452	Well you know, there were camouflage suits in WWII as well. Certainly the first ones were designed/used by the Germans in that conflict. Although from what I read from a certain book about camouflage a while ago it stated that several of the bigger European countries had some sorts of projects build inside their militaries after WWI that were aimed towards designing/researching camouflage patterns and their overall use. Certainly there were some camouflaged fatigues used by the American forces along with the Germans in WWII. Some have stated that the "Duck hunter" - pattern that was seen more in use by the marines in the pacific would have been in use in the D-day landings. However , th use of this camouflage pattern was quickly put on hold in the European theatre since it caused some friendly-fire incidents , apparently. So in other words , US GI's wearing them were mistaken for Germans. We all know that sometimes regular OD/olive green etc. BDU's work better than camouflaged ones. I would assume that the main reason for the use of camouflaged fatigues , BDU's etc. after WWII would simply be explained with new innovation. Camouflaged fatigues were something new and in some cases better than the old battle gear in solid colors. And as a personal note I doubt that the Netherlands are going to go away from their own very cool DPM pattern for awhile. Since , afterall , there are many "traditional" (non-digital patterns) that work just as well as the newer digital ones such as MARPAT and CADPAT. Although they do seem to have a slight advantage in some cases.

08-14-2005, 06:18 PM	#4
privatecowboy Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 36	As others have said experience drives evolution. Certainly it is plain to see that camouflage is constantly evolving, as research , development and science allows it to do so. It is fair to credit axis Germany for their use of various camouflage as far back as WW2. However there certainly was recognition from other armies that camo patterns could be useful in a tactical sense. You only have to look at American Airborne pathfinders applying painted swathes to their M42 jumpsuits to brake up their outline as a primative form of camouflage.Other notable examples being the Dension smocks of the British Airbourne and the pacific theatre Marine camo. I would like to compare the evolution of camouflage with that of military firearms, experience in the field and the actual evolution of combat itself dictating the pace of change and development.

08-15-2005, 09:18 AM	#5
Shar. Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,005	Thanks for the sites Alpha Leader! and others thanks for the explanation but why are the americans using marpat, why not stick with the camo they used to have? What has the digi camo that the older 'version' didnt had? Or.. is it just because (like privatecowboy already said) they are always evolving and always find a new sort of camo that just looks nice (?) or works better (?)

08-18-2005, 07:12 PM	#9
Shar. Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,005	alright, so there was a little truth in why they choose the digi camo, because of the night vision thanks for the link!

08-18-2005, 10:50 PM	#12
CONSERVATIVE53 Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA. Lacrosse. Posts: 1,400	Give em a break, they're a small company and they don't have the money to print every pattern. Some of their patterns are being tried by all branches of our military so I guess they ain't so bad. I really like their stuff.

08-18-2005, 11:20 PM	#13
BiZ Official Team Milo Selection Committee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: East Coast, Australia Posts: 1,751	Sorry, I'm just excited after reading: HyperStealth® Biotechnology Corp. has developed the Passive Negative Ion Generator™ Wonder what the quality of the uniforms are like? Fair enough the King of Jordan loves them........but what about actual soldiers in real environments?