reinstating the iron cross

[Esszett]

Originally Posted by California Joe

Asshead, that retard in the picture was universally excoriated by members of every frigging country on this board the first time it was posted. You'll have to excuse the lack of sympathy for combat vets that were Nazis and trying to kill the rest of us. Most of us that have studied the history of WW II do not get our info from movies. We have a pretty good idea of the professionalism of the German Army. How do you walk with that HUGE chip on your shoulder.

I see. Did a search on it and found it.
Sorry, I have to admit I let myself carry away a bit. (Do you say that in English?)
I blame it on alcohol.

And Macs: You might be right.

[kk111]

Iron Cross 1.Class "1957-Version"


Bundeswehr - Iron Cross

[Count Lippe]

Earned in WWII...
The Bundeswehr and NVA were established with the help of many Wehrmacht officers.

[Vandervahn]

Originally Posted by Count Lippe

Earned in WWII...
The Bundeswehr and NVA were established with the help of many Wehrmacht officers.

Well, the Bundeswehr wouldnt have been very professional if they had only accepted non-Wehrmacht people in the 50s, would it?
The theory of collective guilt made it possible for former 3rd Reich officials to come into steering position again, because if all are guilty, then you can as well choose people who already know their job

[tsuri]

Iron Cross 1.Class "1957-Version"

But it is only the Exchange Version. The WW2 Swastika was exchanged for Eichenlaub. It was not given to Bundeswehr Soldiers for Bundeswehr achievements.

[kk111]

thats right.

[gadzook]

I'm as anti-Nazi as they come and I don't have a problem with the Iron Cross. Since it pre-dates Nazism and the Third Reich I do not have an issue with it.

[Freibier]

I'm all for reinstating the EK and our Tankers need their skull collartabs back

[Kekkonen]

Would be interesting to see the day when PC-levels have dropped so low that it can indeed be reinstated. Hopefully that will be soon.

Originally Posted by oregongrunt

http://www.replicaters.com/ww2%20German%20Luftwaffe%20uniforms/luftwed.jpg

Mr.Larry Mihlon, Director, Luftwaffe Aircrew Reenactors Association got married in June wearing our Luftwaffe Mess Jacket, vest and trousers. We are so honoured.
Thank you Mr.Mihlon for giving us the opportunity of being of service, for trusting us with an event which was so important, and for allowing us to use photographs of the event. We cannot thank you enough. Our best wishes and prayers for both your wife and you for a very prosperous and blissful future.

You are behind the times, it's been reinstated years ago.

Given that the guys in the association play with these kinds of toys I guess it's safe to say that he knows more about ww2 history than any of you calling/thinking of him as a "retard", and I am sure he cares just that much too.

[towelie]

Originally Posted by Freibier

our Tankers need their skull collartabs back

all the liberals would wet their panties if that happened

[Zapp Brannigan]

Originally Posted by Esszett

For the history of the Iron Cross look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

The Iron Cross is only awarded in wartime.
And the Bundeswehr has never been involved in a real war.
(I don't count the Kosovo- and Afghanistan wars in as they were more limited "military-operations" IMO)

But I think it is possible that the Iron Cross could be awarded again in wartime.

The Knight's Cross is a higher grade of the Iron Cross (it's called "Knights Cross of the Iron Cross" -> see link) and is a Nazi-only medal.

The highest medal on German side in WW I was the "Pour le Merite", nicknamed "Der Blaue Max". -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite

If I ever had to go to war for my country it would be the highest honor for me to receive the Iron Cross since it has always been THE symbol of bravery, loyality and chivalry (the reason why it was chosen as the symbol of the Bundeswehr).

That Wikipedia article is full of inaccuracies.

Regarding "The Iron Cross is only awarded in wartime," that is not completely true. The Iron Cross was not awarded during the two German/Danish Wars (1848-49 and 1864) nor during the Austro-Prussian War (1866). Prussian soldiers in those conflicts received the Militär-Ehrenzeichen 1st or 2nd Class, with a few receiving the highest enlisted award, the Military Merit Cross, the so-called "Pour le Mérite for NCOs and enlisted men" (Militär-Verdienstkreuz, sogenannter Orden Pour le Mérite für Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften). A few of these were awarded in the Franco-Prussian War and World War One, but in these wars the Iron Cross was the main award. For Prussian officers, the main decorations when the Iron Cross was not awarded were the Crown Order with Swords and the Order of the Red Eagle with Swords. A few received the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords, and even fewer received the Pour le Merite.

The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross is not "a Nazi-only medal." In English, your wording implies that the medal was a Nazi award, i.e. a political award. It was a Nazi-era medal, or a Third Reich-era medal, or a World War II-era medal.

As for "The highest medal on German side in WW I was the "Pour le Merite", the PLM was not a German order, but a Prussian one. Given Prussia's central role in Germany, many PLMs were awarded to non-Prussians, but the vast majority went to Prussian officers. Also keep in mind that the PLM was an order, so it could only be awarded to officers. The Iron Cross was awarded without regard to rank.

Other Imperial German states had their own highest military honors, again all restricted to officers. The most prestigious of these were:

• Bavaria: Military Order of Max Joseph (Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden)
• Saxony: Military Order of St. Henry (Militär St. Heinrich-Orden
• Württemberg: Order of Military Merit (Militär-Verdienstorden)
• Baden: Military Merit Order of Karl-Friedrich (Militärischer Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden)

Associated with each of these orders were medals which served as the highest honor for enlisted men and NCOs. Other German states had their own decorations, and several had Iron Cross-equivalents, military decorations awarded without regard to rank, often in two classes like the Iron Cross. Among these were the Grand Duchies of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Oldenburg, and the Duchy of Brunswick (although the 1st Class of Brunswick's War Merit Cross did not appear until 1918).

Because of politics and ignorance (all those people who associate the Iron Cross only with its 1939 version and the Nazi era), I doubt it would ever be reestablished as an award. A proper Military Merit Cross, though, should. A first step might be to authorize swords for the Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr, to distinguish combat awards from peacetime long service ones. This was routinely done during the Boxer Rebellion and Germany's colonial wars to distinguish peacetime Crown Orders and Red Eagles (in these cases, the orders were worn on the Iron Cross ribbon too).

The same could be done for the Bundesverdienstkreuz. It's not quite an Iron Cross or Pour le Merite, but a Bundesverdienstkreuz mit Schwertern, maybe am Bande des Eisernen Kreuzes, would be an improvement over the current system of nothing.

[Macs.]

Originally Posted by towelie

all the liberals would wet their panties if that happened

[Zapp Brannigan]

Originally Posted by Macs

That Totenkopf is more like a Brunswick Hussar (Braunschweigisches Husaren-Regiment Nr.17) type than the Prussian Death's Head Hussar type adopted by Panzertruppen and in slightly modified form by the SS. No one should take offense at that .