MP43 or MP44 Sturmgewehr; who's right ?

[Adam Wilhelm]

StG45 (M)

[percell_086]

I'm learning every day

[Tony Williams]

The Russians are beginning to own up!

From: http://news.pravda.ru/science/2003/08/02/52996.html

"The history of the well-known automatic weapon began on July 15th, 1943
when a captured MP-43 and a cartridge were tested. Main designer Nikolay
Yelizarov and leading engineer Paul Ryazanov quickly developed " an
intermediate cartridge "....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[ClydeFrog]

Originally Posted by big_les

It's purely the general arrangement that they share, which (the Stg44) may well have inspired the AK, but that's as far as it goes. Compare any two contemporary east/west designs and there will be as much commonality as you see with the Stg/AK.

Yeah but then, which contemporary assault rifle is not in one way or the other inspired by the AK? It's what engineers like to call a "dominant design". Everything succeeding it will be more or less a copy (in a broad sense).

The Russians are beginning to own up!

From: http://news.pravda.ru/science/2003/08/02/52996.html

"The history of the well-known automatic weapon began on July 15th, 1943
when a captured MP-43 and a cartridge were tested. Main designer Nikolay
Yelizarov and leading engineer Paul Ryazanov quickly developed " an
intermediate cartridge "....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

That's a nice read. I always thought the Soviets got their hands on one of the MP43s or MKb-42s sometime in 1943 and then developed their own cartridge and their own "StG" for it, but that's the first time i read it on a Russian page.

[bas]

Originally Posted by REMOV

It nearly the same, "MP.43", "MP.44" or "StG.44" (the "MP.44" is the "MP.43" with minor changes, the "MP.44" is previous name of the "StG.44"). The name has changed due to political not technical reasons.

Slight correction, apart from very minor differences, the MP.43, MP.44 and StG.44 are identical. The version between the MKb.42(H) and the MP.43 that was was the first closed bolt trial gun was the MP.43/1. This was the version with the unstepped barrel and the rail on the rear sight for a scope.

Originally Posted by Hydroquip

The StGw.44 has much more in common with the H&K designs, the H&K's were based on the StGw.45, which took features from the StGw.44...move the sights back on the '44 and voila...you've *almost* got an HK33. Look at the reciever and stock arrangement.

StG.44 family has next to nothing in common with the Mauser StG.45. One (Stg.44) is gas operated with a tilting bolt, the other is delayed blowback with a 'roller-lock' bolt.

Originally Posted by Tony Williams

The Russians are beginning to own up!

From: http://news.pravda.ru/science/2003/08/02/52996.html

"The history of the well-known automatic weapon began on July 15th, 1943
when a captured MP-43 and a cartridge were tested. Main designer Nikolay
Yelizarov and leading engineer Paul Ryazanov quickly developed " an
intermediate cartridge "....

More likely that the captured rifle was a MKb.42(H) since 2000 had just arrived on the Eastern Front for combat trials (April 1943). The first MP.43/1s didn't arrive till October 1943.

[Hydro]

Originally Posted by bas

StG.44 family has next to nothing in common with the Mauser StG.45. One (Stg.44) is gas operated with a tilting bolt, the other is delayed blowback with a 'roller-lock' bolt.

Apart from the general layout and the use of pushpins in holding the entire thing together that was carried through the H&K designs? There IS more to firearms designs than the method of locking the breech.

[bas]

Originally Posted by Hydroquip

Apart from the general layout and the use of pushpins in holding the entire thing together that was carried through the H&K designs? There IS more to firearms designs than the method of locking the breech.

Your point was that the StG.44 has much more in common with the H&K designs [than it has with the AK-47]. It ignores the fact that two fundimental aspects of a firearms design; method of operation and the way the bolt locks are dramatically different between the two guns. To say that the H&K family has more in common with the StG.44 than the StG.44 has with the AK-47 because of the push through pin is naieve.

The most common argument that the AK-47 was not a copy of the StG.44 is the difference in method of locking the bolt. Now you are telling us that this is a minor difference between the StG.44 and StG.45?

Make a list of the features of the StG.44, StG.45 and AK-47 and compare them. You'll be surprised at how much they have in common. But the StG.44 and AK-47 will have more in common over all.

[marc780]

You have to wonder what the heck was going on in the late '30s. USA and Europe.
The French had their Maginot line and their large army, being fully aware the Germans wanted nothing more than a rematch of 1918, but none of it was sufficient to avoid being conquered. The British had their own issues, restive colonies and economic problems, and by the time Chamberlain realized what Hitler was up to, it was too late to save the czechs or the Poles and he could do nothing more than buy time for Britain to catch up in air defense. The russians were busy overcoming Stalin's purges, the italian people were dragging their feet despite Benito's urgings, and the Americans were overcoming the depression and wanted nothing to do with another war in Europe.
So Hitler gradually probed for weakness and accepted war only when it was unavoidable. He wanted "Lebensraum" for his master race and Germany's greatness again and, and having cracked a book or two, strongly believed the drang noch osten was unavoidable.

And so, Germany began WW2 because of the ideas of one man. The downfall of same, be they Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam Hussein - is always that they come to believe in their own judgment and ignore everything else.
The most basic fighting "unit" is the infantryman and you would think every country would drop everything to prioritize him, if they are foolish enough to declare war. But no, they dont. The Russians have their dead reliable but innacurate AK, the Americans have their dead accurate but unreliable M-16. And in 1939, the Germans had their kar 98.

The Kar was the most excellent bolt action rifle, maybe of all time. It was very accurate and had a 5 round clip, and was reliable enough. Unfortunately Hitler forgot two things, 1) their main battle rifle was a BOLT ACTION and 2) it was 1939, and other countries, like the US, were familiar with semi autos and had already made ditto a standard. The reason follows, his commanders did in fact question him on the logic of retaining the kar, a WW1 rifle - and Hitler replied that this weapon had been good enough for him in the trenches in 1918, therefore, it was good enough now. (he won the iron cross and was temporarily blinded by gas after serving 4 years at war.)

Thus the Germans began WW2 with a bolt action as standard but the best MG of all time, the MG-34 and its later variant, the MG 42. Their weapons formed their tactics and so, a Nazi squad (1o to 12 men, of which all except 1 were armed either with the kar or an MP 40 - a pistol caliber weapon good only at very short range) was little more than a support group for the machine gun.

About 1943, after Goebbels declare total war (2 years too late), some bright German guys figured out the assault rifle concept we know today. Said German guys were smart enough to re enginner the standard 7.92 rifle and mg round and simply require a little carving off of the brass to make the 7.92 kurz (short) which was to be fired in the new weapon. As the other people point out, it was snuck in under Hitlers nose because of his stupidity and myopia, but the weapon designers did it nonetheless. The final version, the MP-44, was revolutionary indeed, and at least half a million were made. It may have prolonged the war for months as it more than doubled the firepower of the German infantry squad where it counted, on the Eastern front. (The MP 44 was first used against the Russians and they wasted little time in copying it, as we all know the AK 47. Despite anything you may have heard, the prolific AK is nothing more than a copy of the sturmgewehr and other weapons - even the trigger mechanism was lifted directly from the M1 garand.)

The sturmgewehr was one of hitler's "Secret weapons" that he promised the German people, and along with the V-1, the V-2, night vision and the king tiger tank, he sort of delivered. But the sturmgewehr will forever be described as too little, too late.

And whatever secret weapons Hitler had, only if he had had an atom bomb, could things have ultimately ended differently in any way. (In fact, the US atom bomb was originally intended to be used on Germany. Only the collapse of Hitler made Japan the target.) Without it, Germany could never have emerged the victor no matter what secret weapons there were.

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by marc780

About 1943, after Goebbels declare total war (2 years too late), some bright German guys figured out the assault rifle concept we know today. Said German guys were smart enough to re enginner the standard 7.92 rifle and mg round and simply require a little carving off of the brass to make the 7.92 kurz (short) which was to be fired in the new weapon. As the other people point out, it was snuck in under Hitlers nose because of his stupidity and myopia, but the weapon designers did it nonetheless. The final version, the MP-44, was revolutionary indeed, and at least half a million were made. It may have prolonged the war for months as it more than doubled the firepower of the German infantry squad where it counted, on the Eastern front. (The MP 44 was first used against the Russians and they wasted little time in copying it, as we all know the AK 47. Despite anything you may have heard, the prolific AK is nothing more than a copy of the sturmgewehr and other weapons - even the trigger mechanism was lifted directly from the M1 garand.).

The story of the development of the assault rifle (by which I mean, a selective-fire rifle firing a cartridge in between pistol ammo and the standard .30/8mm rifle/MG rounds) was much more complicated than that. There's an article in the latest Small Arms Review magazine (modesty forbids my naming the author ) which spells out the long history of the development of such a cartridge/gun combination: several different countries were experimenting with such weapons, and even offering them for sale, long before WW2.

Germany deserves the credit for being the first to introduce such a weapon on a large scale, although the process didn't start in 1943 but in the late 1930s. Russia decided to follow suit in 1943 after examining captured MKb 42 weapons. The Russian cartridge and the AK gun were certainly inspired by the German development (although they were not a direct copy), but it wasn't the first they had heard about such ideas: in fact, the one man who had been arguing in favour of just such a weapon and cartridge for about 30 years was the Russian Federov (whose 6.5mm selective-fire rifle was put into production in 1916, and saw limited combat use).

As far as copying features from other weapons is concerned, most ideas concerned with automatic weapon design had been patented by 1900. Almost everything since then has just involved shuffling the ideas in different combinations.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[marc780]

Russia decided to follow suit in 1943 after examining captured MKb 42 weapons. The Russian cartridge and the AK gun were certainly inspired by the German development (although they were not a direct copy)

The weapon of which you speak might have been the SKS. It was a 10 round semi auto as you probably know. Kalashnikov was really no genius as he simply lifted design elements from other weapons to make the AK. The proof is that his only previous design was a submachine gun that nobody wanted or needed, and which the Soviet High command rejected. They already had the PPSh, which was the simplest submachine gun that anyone could have invented - and this was thought to be good enough for the rabble to win the war.
The designer of the mp-44, schmeiser, was possibly the most revolutionary weapons engineer of the 20th century. Kalashnikov, not so much.

[Jippo]

Originally Posted by Tony Williams

The Russians are beginning to own up!

From: http://news.pravda.ru/science/2003/08/02/52996.html

"The history of the well-known automatic weapon began on July 15th, 1943
when a captured MP-43 and a cartridge were tested. Main designer Nikolay
Yelizarov and leading engineer Paul Ryazanov quickly developed " an
intermediate cartridge "....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

And the cartridge is hardly "quickly developed" by these two chaps, it is identical to 7.92 Geco M35 from the year 35.

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by Jippo

And the cartridge is hardly "quickly developed" by these two chaps, it is identical to 7.92 Geco M35 from the year 35.

Err, no. If you read the SAR article you would realise that there was no cartridge of which the 7.62x39 M43 could have been a copy: its basic dimensions are unique.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[Jippo]

Other opinion:

"The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN. M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945)."

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA4.html

[TheWatcher]

Originally Posted by marc780

The weapon of which you speak might have been the SKS. It was a 10 round semi auto as you probably know. Kalashnikov was really no genius as he simply lifted design elements from other weapons to make the AK. The proof is that his only previous design was a submachine gun that nobody wanted or needed, and which the Soviet High command rejected. They already had the PPSh, which was the simplest submachine gun that anyone could have invented - and this was thought to be good enough for the rabble to win the war.

Proof ?
Judge Jefferies would have loved you had he been forced to resort to juries.

Originally Posted by marc780

The designer of the mp-44, schmeiser, was possibly the most revolutionary weapons engineer of the 20th century. Kalashnikov, not so much.

Or possibly not.

We can also say that Schmeisser too, (or perhaps the Haenel design team he headed,) "simply lifted design elements from other weapons."

- The cart design was started by RWS and Polte in 1934, the latter receiving the development contract four years later.
- Tilting block locking systems had already been used successfully in the ZB designs et al.
- The use of stampings and the magazine well/release were already in use on the MP38 of which he was fully aware, having had a major hand in the (mainly) economic modifications that resulted in the MP40.

Far from being the product of a "revolutionary weapons engineer," the MKb.42(H) was more conventional than the MKb.42(W), which drew it's unusual gas system from Walther's earlier design, the GA115.

That 'form follows function' should never be ignored, some items are similarly made because that is the construction which best suits their use, but all the firearms designers discused above produced some very useful tools while working within the parameters set by their respective military procurement organisations.
To call any one of them a genius would be an exaggeration, try comparing their designs and products to those of JMB.

[Tony Williams]

A quote from my SAR article:

"Some sources claim that the 7.62x39 was no more than a copy of a German Geco cartridge for the Vollmer M 35 carbine, designed in 1934/35 by the aforementioned H.G.Winter. However, as we have seen, the cartridges designed for that gun were quite different, having larger case diameters. The round often cited as the model for the M1943 is the 7.62x38.5 "Mittelpatrone", but the diameter of that case is also larger than the M1943's and, according to Dynamit Nobel (Geco's postwar parent company), it dates from 1960. There is therefore no known German cartridge of which the 7.62x39 M1943 could have been a copy. The authors of a Russian history of the M1943, who had access to Soviet archives, were unable to find reliable information as to whether the USSR had any previous knowledge of the development of intermediate rounds in the West."

The article contains a table listing all known experimental assault rifle cartridges, with their dimensions measured from actual examples. None has the rim and base diameters of the Russian round.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum