The Spartans

[bishop1]

Ive recently starteed getting into ancient history, and anyone intreasted in military/warfare and history has to at least acknowledge the Spartans of ancient Greece. While they had many mean attributes such as enslaving the Messianians, putting all the "peers" or "similars" through the Agoge, exposing the babies they thought were unfit and just being brutal, selfish, and awfully upity, one cannot deny the affect they had on the Western world. They were pretty much the first to introduce any kind of formal bootcamp or training, as well as organized tactical warfare, and also state sponsored education. Not to mention their place in the Persian wars, their stand at Thermopalyea was more the act of a novel and myth than rea life, and thier place at the battle of Platea, which helped to more or less expel the Persians for good. I was just wondering how many of you know or are intreasted in the Spartans, and what you think about their effect on the world as we know it.

[MarineDEP4]

i'll decide that

[Marmot1]

Originally Posted by bishop1

Ive recently starteed getting into ancient history, and anyone intreasted in military/warfare and history has to at least acknowledge the Spartans of ancient Greece. While they had many mean attributes such as enslaving the Messianians, putting all the "peers" or "similars" through the Agoge, exposing the babies they thought were unfit and just being brutal, selfish, and awfully upity, one cannot deny the affect they had on the Western world. They were pretty much the first to introduce any kind of formal bootcamp or training, as well as organized tactical warfare, and also state sponsored education. Not to mention their place in the Persian wars, their stand at Thermopalyea was more the act of a novel and myth than rea life, and thier place at the battle of Platea, which helped to more or less expel the Persians for good. I was just wondering how many of you know or are intreasted in the Spartans, and what you think about their effect on the world as we know it.

He he Leonidas did a good job in Termophylea gorge!

How it was??? "With the shield or on the shield"

The monument to Leonidas now lies beside the main Athens to Thessalonika highway about a kilometre southeast of Thermopylae. In 481 B.C. the Persian king, Darius, created an army under the command of his son, Xerxes I, and invaded Greece. In 480 the Persian army had reached Thermopylae, at that time a narrow beach strip, backed by near-vertical cliffs. Here Leonidas I and several thousand troops blocked the way. A treacherous Greek showed the Persians a way to cross the mountains and Leonidas was attacked from the rear. He allowed most of his troops to withdraw but stayed to cover the retreat with his royal bodyguard (the 300 Spartans) and a group of 700 Thespians. All were killed. Today, historical deforestation and modern siltation has widened the beach strip to an agricultural plain which runs from the cliffs to the sea several kilometres to the northeast.

[Merik]

Originally Posted by MarineDEP4

i'll decide that

[Marmot1]

"Stranger, announce to the Spartans that we
lie here dead, obedient to their words"
-Herodotus

Yeah I like this Quote...it is engraved on monument near Termophyle

[bishop1]

marmot, yeah from what i know Leonidas wifr gorgo told him to come back with his shield, or on it. And Leonidas himself had a few zingers himself, such as Eat a good breakfest men, or well all be sharing dinner in hell. And also when the Persian came to talk to them about surrendering their arms he replied Molon Labe, Come and get them. And of course Diences when hearing there were so many persian archers their arrows blocked the sun he said, good, then we shall fight in the shade. They always knew the right things to say.

[Marmot1]

Thermopylae was important because Persia was the world's first true superpower. It dominated Asia and sought to dominate Europe. If the Greeks had lost at Marathon, Western civilization would have died at birth. And the Greeks could not have won at Marathon without the brave stand of the Spartans at Thermopylae.

To call what the Spartans did at Thermopylae 'brave' is to misunderstand the scale of the action. Thousands of Persian soldiers, including the very best, the 'Immortals', tried repeatedly to destroy the tiny force that blocked their way. Every Greek soldier was outnumbered more than ten to one in each clash. They knew, with an absolute certainty, that not one of them would survive the battle, and yet they kept the mighty Persian army at bay for a critical six days.

Leonidas and his men knew what was at stake, and knew that every hour they bought for the army assembling at Marathon was just that much more chance that the Greeks could defeat the Persian juggernaut before them. Many men have risked death for their countries, but these men took no risk: death was a certainty. Yet even though the way to flee was clear behind them, they held the pass to the last man, even launching a series of daring charges to recover the body of Leonidas once he had died, for he stood in the front rank throughout the fighting.

THERMOPYLAE
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion;
generous when they're rich, and when they're poor,
still generous in small ways,
still helping as much as they can;
always speaking the truth,
yet without hating those who lie.
And even more honor is due to them
when they foresee (as many do foresee)
that Ephialtis will turn up in the end,
that the Medes will break through after all.
C. P. Cavafy (1903)

[bishop1]

Marmot, i dont mean to insult but your facts are off, The Greeks only fought off the Persians for 3 days, the Immortals with the help of a Greek villager found a way to the rear of the Greeks, so at the Dawn of the 3rd day they were surrounded. But Leonidas knew that, so before the battle he told all men were free to flee, and most did except the Spartans and a few Thebans and Corinthians, the 3rd and 4th most powerful military forces in Greece. That article you quoted is way ****ed up. The battle of Marathon took place in 490 B.C. 10 years before Thermoapylae, and the Spartans were absent from the battle, something they had to live down until Thermopylea. It was the battle of Platea, in 479 B.C. where the Spartans had a force of 5,000 strong, half their "peers" of Sparta, as well as 35,000 armed Helots, at that battle they took the bacon as well, being instrumental in defeating the Persians. And at Thermopalyea, Herotudus gives the Persian numbers as high as a 1,750,000 but modern scholars belive it was more like 250,000, even still the 7,000 Greeks at Thermopylea were outnumberred at least 25 to one. But what the article said about Leonidas is correct, once he fell the Greeks fought 4 charges to recover the body, and it was Spartan custom that the king was the first to engage the enemy and last to break it off.

[The thing]

I studied Classical studies in high school, I found it very intresting.
If you ever get the chance you should get a copy of the Peloponnese wars, its a very very intresting book.

[flanker7]

About the shield thing. It was tradition in Sparta just before a military campain for the mother or the wife to give to the man his shield with the blessing return with it or be returned on it which ment basicelly be victorius or die fighting, don't discrese the family by running away. It was also a tradition of Sparta, and many other Greek towns, to bathe, comp their hair and groom their selves before battle so that if they die they would go to the other world, Hades, looking good.
As for the battle of Marathon, it was befote Thermopylae and the Spartans didn't go because it was not a foul moon yet. Actualy the reason was that they prefered defending Sparta at Korintus straits than helping Athens, a major rival for political influence in Greece.


Ask for enything more you like to know. I wiil be glad to help if I can. The history of their nations is one of the few things Greeks are proud of.

[FuturePara]

I absolutely love that quote along with Lenonidas' one that goes
An egyptian told him "The Persian archers fire volleys so thick they block out the sun"
Leonidas-"Good, then we'll have our battle in the shade."
Along with "Molon Labe." Amazing historical figure.
I also LOVED the book Gates of Fire, I can't reccomend it enough.

[Ichhabe]

Didn't they also shag eachother like rabbits aswell to improve team-spirit and boost morale?

[FallenAngel]

Originally Posted by Ichhabe

Didn't they also shag eachother like rabbits aswell to improve team-spirit and boost morale?

Spartan males started their "training" around 10 years old or so. They would basically become the apprentance to a seasoned soldier. THe bond between the two would become close...such as father and son. Sometimes it became sexual too, sometimes it didn't.

Spartans were technically not allowed to marry until they were discharged (around 45 or so I thinK), but they would also be encouraged to father as many healthy children as possible. So, Spartan males would go visit their girlfriends at night, sleep with them and then leave before morning. If they were "caught" they would be punished.

The problem with the Spartans is that their army rarely numbered over 10,000 regulars.