china and taiwan

wubanga101 · 08-14-2006, 10:18 PM

Saturday, August 12, 2006 · Last updated 10:30 a.m. PT
U.S. walks fine line with China, Taiwan
By PETER ENAV
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

ILAN, Taiwan -- The weaponry is heavily American - F-16s bombarding a simulated Chinese flotilla, Cobra helicopters targeting invading ground troops, Patriot missiles streaking across the azure Asian sky.
The annual war games are Taiwan's way of showcasing its readiness to repel an attack by neighboring China, and they also serve as a reminder that the island's back-up muscle comes from Washington, long its major supporter.
The exercise highlights a rivalry between democratic Taiwan and its giant communist neighbor that potentially could draw the United States into a conflict with a China that is fast emerging as a global heavyweight.
Talk is tough on both sides of the 100 mile-wide Taiwan Strait separating the island and the mainland. But as with Korea, Asia's other unfinished civil war, this one reflects a complex set of priorities that range from domestic politics to international economics, regional rivalries to global strategic interests.
China and Taiwan split in 1949, and since then Beijing has never abandoned its position that the island is part of its territory, to be recovered by force if necessary.
The stakes involved in the Taiwan-China standoff are incalculable. Both sides are workshops of the consumer world. The seas around them are heavily traveled by ships carrying their vast output of consumer goods to the West. Chinese purchases of American debt, which sustain the value of the U.S. dollar, would almost certainly evaporate if the U.S. sided with Taiwan in a confrontation over the island. And a war would severely rattle Japan, which harbors its own suspicions of China's rising might.
Beijing has an estimated 800 missiles pointed at Taiwan, and has warned repeatedly it will go to war if the Maryland-sized island declares independence.
"We will do our utmost with all sincerity to strive for the prospect of peaceful reunification," said Chinese President Hu Jintao at a White House appearance with President Bush in April. "This being said, we will by no means allow Taiwan independence."

An outsider would be hard-pressed to define what's not "independent" about Taiwan. It may look like China, but it elects its own president, makes its own laws, issues its own passports and currency, and treasures its vibrant democracy.

But in fact, both sides have shared one pillar of ideology since the split of 1949 - that there is one China and it should someday be reunited. As long as Taiwanese governments stuck to that mantra, China could live with the division. But with the passage of 57 years, the 23 million Taiwanese have grown apart from the mainland, and their democracy has given them a president who came to office as an outright opponent of unification, and is doing everything he can to prevent it.
Washington adheres to the one-China doctrine and has recognized Beijing as its government since 1979. But it has always maintained an intimate connection to Taiwan, providing it with the means to defend itself, and warning Beijing against mounting an attack.
Backing up the warning are 50,000 U.S. troops in Japan, concentrated in Okinawa, 400 miles from here. In 1996, when China was dropping missiles off the Taiwan coast out of displeasure at a perceived drift toward independence, President Clinton sent in the Seventh Fleet to deter it.
In 2002 Bush pledged to "help Taiwan defend itself if provoked."
But U.S. support for Taiwan is hardly open-ended.
Earlier this year it complained when President Chen Shui-bian scrapped the government body charged with overseeing eventual union with the mainland. The U.S. feared Beijing would read it as a downgrading of the emphasis on the one-China doctrine and take it as an excuse to attack.
Now in his seventh year in power, Chen advocates incrementally pushing the envelope on independence with measures designed to foster separateness, such as making schools teach Taiwanese history first, Chinese history second.
Washington's criticisms of Chen's actions symbolize the fine line it must tread between supporting separateness without letting it become permanent.
Some influential Americans fault the U.S. position; they see democratic Taiwan as a bulwark against communist China fully deserving of independent status. But the official view is much more circumspect.
"We want to be supportive of Taiwan, while we're not encouraging those that try to move toward independence," Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick told a congressional hearing. "Because let me be very clear: Independence means war."
Underlying Zoellick's caution is concern about China's modernizing military, and the difficulties America would presumably have fighting two wars simultaneously - one in Iraq, the other in the Pacific.
Over the past 10 years Beijing has enhanced its ability to stand up to the U.S. military, improved its intercontinental ballistic missiles, and armed itself with sophisticated Russian equipment. Its 2.5 million-strong military outnumbers Taiwan's more than eight to one.
"There is a growing reluctance among American military planners to engage China in a conflict because of the improvement in its armed forces and its ability to strike U.S. targets with nuclear weapons," said Wendell Minnick of Washington-based Defense News.
Beijing's rapid buildup is also an issue in Japan, Washington's most important Pacific ally.
Much to the Taiwanese government's delight, Tokyo is taking an increasingly vocal stand against China's growing power. Some Japanese politicians have even suggested Japan strengthen its security alliance with the United States to bolster Taiwan's capacity to withstand a Chinese attack.
But Japan's 20th century militarism is still a sore point in Asia, especially in China which was invaded by Japan in the 1930s, and the Koreas which were a Japanese colony from 1910 to 1945. That makes a deployment of Japanese troops in the Taiwan Strait unlikely.
"For Japan to engage in military operations over Taiwan would break with constitutional prohibitions against Japanese belligerency," said Robert Dujarric of the Japan Institute of International Affairs in Tokyo. "Helping the United States logistically in a Taiwan conflict is one thing, but getting involved in the fighting is another."
Beijing's reaction to Japan's perceived pro-Taiwanese position is implacably hostile, and fits in neatly with its drumbeat of pro-unification rhetoric.
But recently it has begun showing a willingness to let others help its cause, rather than confront Taiwan directly. In the case of the unification body, for example, it left the scolding to the United States.
David Zweig, director of the Hong Kong-based Center on China's Transnational Relations, thinks this reflects China's concern that it too has much to lose in a war.
"They do not want confrontation because of economic development," he says. "It's of critical importance to them."
Another factor, Zweig says, is China's belief that Taiwanese politics are working in its favor because the favorite in Taiwan's 2008 presidential election, Ma Ying-jeou, is presumed to support unification.
"With Ma waiting in the wings, they feel they are winning the Taiwan battle on the ground," Zweig says. "They think he will be much more flexible to deal with than Chen Shui-bian."
But like some presidents before him, Ma adheres to another of the mantras that govern Taiwan's policy toward China: that unification can only be considered when China sheds communism and becomes democratic.
That's a distant prospect, and meanwhile, Taiwan's military is taking no chances.
At Ilan beach, the war games arena 40 miles southeast of the capital, Taipei, a quartet of F-16s roars over the dun colored sand and two Knox-class frigates train their guns on a flotilla of simulated Chinese invaders among the rolling waves.
According to U.S.-Taiwan defense doctrine, the Taiwanese military would have to fight an invasion alone for at least four days until American naval forces arrive.
But China could also go with a so-called decapitation strategy - coordinated commando attacks and pinpoint bombing of the island's leaders and key institutions to paralyze the island before American reinforcements can arrive.
"An invasion is always possible," said Taiwanese army Col. Yu Chung-ji, shielding his eyes from the sun as a Cobra helicopter whirred by. "But personally, I think it is more likely they will choose the decapitation option."

Ea$y-8 · 08-14-2006, 11:42 PM

Were is the link for this?

wubanga101 · 08-14-2006, 11:48 PM

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...aiwan_LH1.html

MY MISTAKE

Ordie · 08-15-2006, 02:13 AM

Chen Shui-bian is involved in a political scandal that may cost his party to lose to the KMT at the next general election. In the meantime, the PRC has been very quiet and engaging an "economic bear hug" with Taiwan business interest. There are reports that up to 1 million Taiwanese now reside in the mainland. The longer the economic ties become strong, the less incentive to declare independence. China could live with the status quo for a long time. they are in no rush.

Hispeed1 · 08-15-2006, 03:03 AM

To me, Taiwan is like how the U.S. was a long time ago when the first colonies wanted to be independent from England. We fought and won against the British back then and now we have our independence and our own country. In their case, the Chinese Nationals lost against the Communists and went to Taiwan to start a country.
So many countries still don't see Taiwan as a sovereign country. I think it has to do with their dealings with China. There's a lot of trading and money at stake for them. It all comes down to the money. . .
I believe that it is good to be allied with Taiwan in Asia. It can help counter balance China in that region.

gaijinsamurai · 08-15-2006, 04:56 AM

Agreed. After all these years, Taiwan is no more China than Australia is England. Cynical geopolitics are all that keep most governments and politicians from admitting that.

dragonlord · 08-15-2006, 03:04 PM

Whoa! Whoa! Hold up! Now, what happens to all the US weaponry and technology in Taiwan, IF they decide to unify?

Hellfish · 08-15-2006, 03:09 PM

I don't think a conflict is brewing. I think that in our lifetime we'll see them reunite, or at least resolve most of their disputes, amicably.

Kampfbaer · 08-15-2006, 05:05 PM

Aren´t both of them more merchantmen than soldiers.

At least we won´t see any move before the Olympic games 2008.

Young-kiwi · 08-16-2006, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaijinsamurai

Agreed. After all these years, Taiwan is no more China than Australia is England. Cynical geopolitics are all that keep most governments and politicians from admitting that.

Agree,
If you chat with Taiwanese and Main land chinese (perferably apart) it become very obvious very quickly.

Ordie · 08-16-2006, 03:30 AM

I do not think Independance will not come any time soon.
The majority of the Islanders would like to be left alone from the KMT, DPP and the CCP. Most prefer the staus quo as it gives them de facto independance from Beijing but also identify themselves as part of a greater China.

It is very much like Puerto Rico status. State? Independence? or Status Quo.

08-14-2006, 10:18 PM	#1
wubanga101 Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: armpit of america Posts: 770	china and taiwan Saturday, August 12, 2006 · Last updated 10:30 a.m. PT U.S. walks fine line with China, Taiwan By PETER ENAV ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER ILAN, Taiwan -- The weaponry is heavily American - F-16s bombarding a simulated Chinese flotilla, Cobra helicopters targeting invading ground troops, Patriot missiles streaking across the azure Asian sky. The annual war games are Taiwan's way of showcasing its readiness to repel an attack by neighboring China, and they also serve as a reminder that the island's back-up muscle comes from Washington, long its major supporter. The exercise highlights a rivalry between democratic Taiwan and its giant communist neighbor that potentially could draw the United States into a conflict with a China that is fast emerging as a global heavyweight. Talk is tough on both sides of the 100 mile-wide Taiwan Strait separating the island and the mainland. But as with Korea, Asia's other unfinished civil war, this one reflects a complex set of priorities that range from domestic politics to international economics, regional rivalries to global strategic interests. China and Taiwan split in 1949, and since then Beijing has never abandoned its position that the island is part of its territory, to be recovered by force if necessary. The stakes involved in the Taiwan-China standoff are incalculable. Both sides are workshops of the consumer world. The seas around them are heavily traveled by ships carrying their vast output of consumer goods to the West. Chinese purchases of American debt, which sustain the value of the U.S. dollar, would almost certainly evaporate if the U.S. sided with Taiwan in a confrontation over the island. And a war would severely rattle Japan, which harbors its own suspicions of China's rising might. Beijing has an estimated 800 missiles pointed at Taiwan, and has warned repeatedly it will go to war if the Maryland-sized island declares independence. "We will do our utmost with all sincerity to strive for the prospect of peaceful reunification," said Chinese President Hu Jintao at a White House appearance with President Bush in April. "This being said, we will by no means allow Taiwan independence." An outsider would be hard-pressed to define what's not "independent" about Taiwan. It may look like China, but it elects its own president, makes its own laws, issues its own passports and currency, and treasures its vibrant democracy. But in fact, both sides have shared one pillar of ideology since the split of 1949 - that there is one China and it should someday be reunited. As long as Taiwanese governments stuck to that mantra, China could live with the division. But with the passage of 57 years, the 23 million Taiwanese have grown apart from the mainland, and their democracy has given them a president who came to office as an outright opponent of unification, and is doing everything he can to prevent it. Washington adheres to the one-China doctrine and has recognized Beijing as its government since 1979. But it has always maintained an intimate connection to Taiwan, providing it with the means to defend itself, and warning Beijing against mounting an attack. Backing up the warning are 50,000 U.S. troops in Japan, concentrated in Okinawa, 400 miles from here. In 1996, when China was dropping missiles off the Taiwan coast out of displeasure at a perceived drift toward independence, President Clinton sent in the Seventh Fleet to deter it. In 2002 Bush pledged to "help Taiwan defend itself if provoked." But U.S. support for Taiwan is hardly open-ended. Earlier this year it complained when President Chen Shui-bian scrapped the government body charged with overseeing eventual union with the mainland. The U.S. feared Beijing would read it as a downgrading of the emphasis on the one-China doctrine and take it as an excuse to attack. Now in his seventh year in power, Chen advocates incrementally pushing the envelope on independence with measures designed to foster separateness, such as making schools teach Taiwanese history first, Chinese history second. Washington's criticisms of Chen's actions symbolize the fine line it must tread between supporting separateness without letting it become permanent. Some influential Americans fault the U.S. position; they see democratic Taiwan as a bulwark against communist China fully deserving of independent status. But the official view is much more circumspect. "We want to be supportive of Taiwan, while we're not encouraging those that try to move toward independence," Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick told a congressional hearing. "Because let me be very clear: Independence means war." Underlying Zoellick's caution is concern about China's modernizing military, and the difficulties America would presumably have fighting two wars simultaneously - one in Iraq, the other in the Pacific. Over the past 10 years Beijing has enhanced its ability to stand up to the U.S. military, improved its intercontinental ballistic missiles, and armed itself with sophisticated Russian equipment. Its 2.5 million-strong military outnumbers Taiwan's more than eight to one. "There is a growing reluctance among American military planners to engage China in a conflict because of the improvement in its armed forces and its ability to strike U.S. targets with nuclear weapons," said Wendell Minnick of Washington-based Defense News. Beijing's rapid buildup is also an issue in Japan, Washington's most important Pacific ally. Much to the Taiwanese government's delight, Tokyo is taking an increasingly vocal stand against China's growing power. Some Japanese politicians have even suggested Japan strengthen its security alliance with the United States to bolster Taiwan's capacity to withstand a Chinese attack. But Japan's 20th century militarism is still a sore point in Asia, especially in China which was invaded by Japan in the 1930s, and the Koreas which were a Japanese colony from 1910 to 1945. That makes a deployment of Japanese troops in the Taiwan Strait unlikely. "For Japan to engage in military operations over Taiwan would break with constitutional prohibitions against Japanese belligerency," said Robert Dujarric of the Japan Institute of International Affairs in Tokyo. "Helping the United States logistically in a Taiwan conflict is one thing, but getting involved in the fighting is another." Beijing's reaction to Japan's perceived pro-Taiwanese position is implacably hostile, and fits in neatly with its drumbeat of pro-unification rhetoric. But recently it has begun showing a willingness to let others help its cause, rather than confront Taiwan directly. In the case of the unification body, for example, it left the scolding to the United States. David Zweig, director of the Hong Kong-based Center on China's Transnational Relations, thinks this reflects China's concern that it too has much to lose in a war. "They do not want confrontation because of economic development," he says. "It's of critical importance to them." Another factor, Zweig says, is China's belief that Taiwanese politics are working in its favor because the favorite in Taiwan's 2008 presidential election, Ma Ying-jeou, is presumed to support unification. "With Ma waiting in the wings, they feel they are winning the Taiwan battle on the ground," Zweig says. "They think he will be much more flexible to deal with than Chen Shui-bian." But like some presidents before him, Ma adheres to another of the mantras that govern Taiwan's policy toward China: that unification can only be considered when China sheds communism and becomes democratic. That's a distant prospect, and meanwhile, Taiwan's military is taking no chances. At Ilan beach, the war games arena 40 miles southeast of the capital, Taipei, a quartet of F-16s roars over the dun colored sand and two Knox-class frigates train their guns on a flotilla of simulated Chinese invaders among the rolling waves. According to U.S.-Taiwan defense doctrine, the Taiwanese military would have to fight an invasion alone for at least four days until American naval forces arrive. But China could also go with a so-called decapitation strategy - coordinated commando attacks and pinpoint bombing of the island's leaders and key institutions to paralyze the island before American reinforcements can arrive. "An invasion is always possible," said Taiwanese army Col. Yu Chung-ji, shielding his eyes from the sun as a Cobra helicopter whirred by. "But personally, I think it is more likely they will choose the decapitation option."

08-14-2006, 11:42 PM	#2
Ea$y-8 Juvenile member - stupid comments a speciality Join Date: Sep 2005 Age: 20 Posts: 1,703	Were is the link for this?

08-14-2006, 11:48 PM	#3
wubanga101 Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: armpit of america Posts: 770	http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...aiwan_LH1.html MY MISTAKE

08-15-2006, 02:13 AM	#4
Ordie Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ordieganda Age: 42 Posts: 12,590	Chen Shui-bian is involved in a political scandal that may cost his party to lose to the KMT at the next general election. In the meantime, the PRC has been very quiet and engaging an "economic bear hug" with Taiwan business interest. There are reports that up to 1 million Taiwanese now reside in the mainland. The longer the economic ties become strong, the less incentive to declare independence. China could live with the status quo for a long time. they are in no rush.

08-15-2006, 03:03 AM	#5
Hispeed1 Banned user Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 3,286	To me, Taiwan is like how the U.S. was a long time ago when the first colonies wanted to be independent from England. We fought and won against the British back then and now we have our independence and our own country. In their case, the Chinese Nationals lost against the Communists and went to Taiwan to start a country. So many countries still don't see Taiwan as a sovereign country. I think it has to do with their dealings with China. There's a lot of trading and money at stake for them. It all comes down to the money. . . I believe that it is good to be allied with Taiwan in Asia. It can help counter balance China in that region.

08-15-2006, 04:56 AM	#6
gaijinsamurai Redneck in denial Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 11,807	Agreed. After all these years, Taiwan is no more China than Australia is England. Cynical geopolitics are all that keep most governments and politicians from admitting that.

08-15-2006, 03:04 PM	#7
dragonlord Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 159	Whoa! Whoa! Hold up! Now, what happens to all the US weaponry and technology in Taiwan, IF they decide to unify?

08-15-2006, 03:09 PM	#8
Hellfish Retard number 2 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Land of the Clouds, Mountains and Sea Age: 31 Posts: 26,718	I don't think a conflict is brewing. I think that in our lifetime we'll see them reunite, or at least resolve most of their disputes, amicably.

08-15-2006, 05:05 PM	#9
Kampfbaer Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A Slight Case Of Overbombing Age: 36 Posts: 862	Aren´t both of them more merchantmen than soldiers. At least we won´t see any move before the Olympic games 2008.

08-16-2006, 03:30 AM	#11
Ordie Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ordieganda Age: 42 Posts: 12,590	I do not think Independance will not come any time soon. The majority of the Islanders would like to be left alone from the KMT, DPP and the CCP. Most prefer the staus quo as it gives them de facto independance from Beijing but also identify themselves as part of a greater China. It is very much like Puerto Rico status. State? Independence? or Status Quo.